By -- DragonArtz Designs
In a May 10, 2010 online article by the Herald-Advocate,Scores vs. salaries: Survey shows pay outpacing performance, we read --
A study published last month in the Sun-Times showed that some Illinois school districts pay their teachers well but receive mediocre test scores in return. Districts that serve Niles and Park Ridge rank high in both salaries and test scores, with the expenditures sometimes outranking performance.
In each of three districts in the area, test scores trailed to varying degrees behind salaries. Maine High School District 207's salaries ranked eighth out of 483, with an average of $89,356, and its Prairie State Achievement Exam test scores ranked 102nd, with an average of 68.6. Park Ridge-Niles School District 64's salaries ranked 35th out of 769 with an average of $66,323.04, and its Illinois Standards Achievement Test scores ranked 55th with an average of 93.1.
The reporting seems straight-forward and simple enough. So what's the explanation for the discrepancy and apparent lack of teachers' salaries being tied to and based upon performance measures?
Oh. Now we get it -- the straight-foward approach lacks "sophisticated statistical inferences." The PRU Crew is wondering if that's the school district equivalent of "the fulcrum of the genesis" where the school district is a "synergistic center" of learning?District 207 Superintendent Ken Wallace said the simplicity of an approach like the one the Sun-Times took can make its conclusions misleading.
"Part of the problem with some studies is that they make broad generalizations without doing sophisticated statistical inferences to make sense of what all that data means," he said. "We've got rigorous studies showing that among the top high school districts in Illinois we are getting better performance out of our students than many."One study shows that we are second among all districts when you factor in whether students are low-income and how many of their parents went to college."
The PRU Crew sure would like to get a look at those "rigorous studies."
Superintendant Wallace goes on to say --
Wallace pointed out that while some schools in the northern suburbs of Chicago are relatively homogeneous, Maine East High School educates students who speak about 60 different languages in their homes.Oh. Now we get it -- some kids no speaka da Engrish. Dang furinears!
The PRU Crew did wonder if those "60 different languages" spoken in the homes of those students is to be construed as meaning those students aren't speaking Engrish at school and what percentage of the district's student body isn't speaking Engrish at school. But we're probably lacking "sophisticated...inferences" somewhere in our thinking.
And if anyone ever doubted the old mantra of location, location, location --
District 207 administrators said their high rank in salaries is partly due to location, and partly to timing. Wallace said the district's salaries are competitive with those of other school districts in the northern suburban region.Oh. Now we get it -- being competitive with other school districts in the northern suburban region is fine and dandy, as long as the issue is teacher salaries. But whatever you do, don't even think about comparing salary levels in conjunction with other school districts academic performance. And anyone who suggests consideration of any direct connection between the two is just not very sophisticated!
Assistant Superintendent for Business Mary Kalou said the high salaries were agreed upon at a collective-bargaining agreement in 2007, before the current recession began.
The article concludes --
"This contract is similar to bargains we have settled in the past. The biggest difference is the downturn in the economy that occurred. Salaries negotiated after the downturn look very different," she said. "When ours expires in 2012, we will look at salaries, and, given the economic situation, where we should go."Got it. Market forces within and without of the educational arena will be looked at, but there won't be any consideration given to any comparison of district test scores as a measure of teacher performance, which may merit the salaries the union can be expected to demand.
36 comments:
There was a very cogent and worrisome article in The Atlantic magazine awhile back that discussed the unfortunate complete lack of synch between seniority and teaching quality and between advanced degrees and teaching quality. Unfortunately, seniority is the easiest thing to "assess" quality on, and extra years in a classroom is what the educational profession knows the most about, so they judge on what they can easily understand and what has the most accessible, unambiguous yardstick. Unfortunately, that results in talented, charismatic teachers being let go before they achieve tenure and terrible, youth-hating, dullard teachers being kept on, and on, and on. Both 64 and 207 admins have been steadfast in their dishonest mantra that "you can't do anything to tenured teachers" unless they show up in nothing but a trench coat, for example. As if lousy, unfair classroom behavior is not equally violating? Teaching to standardized tests is only part of the answer; so that's not the easy out the far right would like. But some combo of parent vote, student vote and standardized teaching results would be much more accurate and fair to the good teachers than seniority and, worse yet, advanced degrees, seem to be. Teaching is hard work, but now, the attraction of a steady dime (and world-class pensions and health care)attract too many who are doing it as a default. "If you can't have the career you'd like, you can always teach" is a deadly prescription for the kids on the receiving end.
"....and terrible, youth-hating, dullard teachers being kept on, and on, and on".
"As if lousy, unfair classroom behavior is not equally violating?"
Are you a parent?? Please tell me, have you actually had an experience with a teacher in 64 or 207 that meet the descriptions that you typed?? I just do not get it. I am active with the many teachers my kids have had. They have all been outstanding - Period!I also know MANY other parents. I have never heard anything above a minor problem or misunderstanding with a teacher. Even those are extremely rare. Most speak of the teachers on our District as excellent. The comments that you write do not match my experience or that of anyone I know.
Anonymous @ 2:23,
Let me introduce myself, I'm Bean; a D64 parent.
In answer to your question to anonymous @ 1:57...
"Please tell me, have you actually had an experience with a teacher in 64 or 207 that meet the descriptions that you typed??"
My answer is, yes.
Because the internet rule of "TMI" applies, I'll leave my answer at merely a "yes."
Unfortunately, your experiences of "outstanding" and "excellent" are not universal.
OK Bean....I guess I will have to take you at your word and simply be greatful that I have not yet had that experience.
By the way, I am not saying every teacher is perfect but youth hating??? I mean if I thought for a second that my kid might be in a class being taught by a teacher who was "youth hating", I would find another option.
Anonymous @ 3:13,
Certainly there aren't any "perfect" teachers...and I would go so far as to say the majority of D64 teachers are good/adequate...some are excellent, and some are awful...kind of reminds me of the rest of the population...
As for your self-certainty..."I mean if I thought for a second that my kid might be in a class being taught by a teacher who was "youth hating", I would find another option."...heh...don't be too sure about how you'd react in [this] situation or any other...we all have a tendency to "surprise" ourselves on occasion...
I've found in some instances, my mind prefers complete "denial" of what I've just been told, if it's "news" I find particularly jarring or unacceptable in some way... My spouse could relate to you a rather comical "Abbott & Costello/Who's On First" -ish exchange we once had when I learned some rather unpleasant news...
I think most parents are mostly inclined to "support" teachers and find it difficult to readily believe any teacher could be simply mean, nasty or unfair...which falls far short of "youth-hating"...but being mean, nasty and/or unfair still makes for a less than "outstanding" and/or "excellent" experience for the student and parents alike.
...and tenure can protect teachers who might become those things for many reasons...predisposition or burn-out...
Bean:
I can understand how people might have issues, hell even "run-in's" with teachers. Teachers have bad days and certainly make mistakes. The word "youth hating" is pretty freakin' harsh to me. I mean you go in for a teachers meeting and walking out to the car you think "My that is a youth hating teacher".
...it's pretty freakin' harsh to describe somebody as "sick, creepy and weird" too...so you walk into a rectory somewhere and walking out to the car you think "My that is a sick, creepy and weird" pastor/priest...
...and yet, the truth of things remained buried for decades...because most folks are inclined not to think the worst...and if the thought crosses their minds, they are as likely to dismiss it as an over-reaction as they are to pursue their own worst thoughts.
Everyone has bad days and teachers are no different. Most parents I know have followed-up on issues and run-ins and alls well afterward...
I think you're focusing on a single phrase, without considering the over-all opinion of the first commenter's statement...though I don't think the respective districts have been "dishonest" about the "tenure mantra"...I disagree with that part of the comment, but I'd be interested in hearing the commenter's expanded opinion on that part of the subject.
Bean:
When I read word choices shch as those it is hard not to have it color my opinion. Those words are little more than rhetoric. The look as if they were lifted from a Sarah Palin speech. Death panels anyone???
Holding teachers responsible for how students do on tests and paying them in part based on test scores is not the worst idea I have heard. The tests that the teachers can't grade would avoid the temptation to inflate student grades. It might even get teachers to be more honest with the students about how much they are really learning.
If standardized tests were a meaningful indicator of how good a teacher is, then it would be the case that the New Trier (and Maine South) teachers are good, and the CPS (and Maine East) teachers are bad. Nonsense.
Father McKenzie --
What do you think should be used as a measure of student learning and teacher performance?
Dear PRU Administrator,
The link to the article is not working. Thought I'd let you know.
Best,
Butterly
Mr. Butterly --
Thank you for letting us know.
The link to the article should now be in working order.
Before one can determine the value of a teacher, one must first settle upon a definition or standard, describing the activity. So, what is teaching?
Teaching is the process of effectively transferring knowledge and skills from one person to another.
How do you know if you have succeeded?
Back in 1991, when I first started consulting school districts on truancy abatement, I asked an Assistant Superintendent that very question. This was her answer:
“We never know. We get students at the beginning of the year, with whatever knowledge they possess and we take them as far as we can, and then at the end of the year, turn them over to someone else.”
Quite frankly, I found the answer astounding and unsettling. To not have a clear mechanism to determine success or failure can’t be good for a teacher’s long term self-esteem.
The only way to determine the effective transfer of knowledge and skills from the teacher to the student is to test.
Until educators understand that it is in their personal and professional best interest to be performance tested, like other professionals, their profession will never achieve the public recognition, they believe, it deserves.
I have to agree with Bean. As a 64/207 parent I have encountered many who should not be taking hard earned tax payer money for their salaries, nor should they be working with impressionable young children. It is a shame that tenure allows those to stay on until retirement.
The problem is the attack points are very simple. Money, as in "they make tooooo much and these are my tax dollars....ahhhhh!!!!" and test scores.
As is often the case with stats, they can mean what every you like. As an example, in the article, PRU references 207 as 102 on the Prairie State test. Looks terrible, right?? But from the same source (suntimes), look at the following. Maine South was was ranked 13th, up 2 from the prior period. These results were based on Prairie State and ISA tests. Gee, it doesn't look so bad after all. Mr. Butterly, why is this? Why is Maine South different versus the rest of the district? Does this mean MS has better teachers or are there other factors? Why do two tests yield different results verus just one?
No wonder teachers are concerned about being judged completely by these tests.
I am a former public high school teacher, with experience in suburban NYC school districts similar to 64/207. Today I live in Park Ridge, earn a salary, and pay a substantial percentage of it to local property taxes, most of which go to the public schools. I'm a dad.
Unfortunately the comment Mr. Butterly heard from an Asst. Superintendent is completely normal among teachers and administrators. In a way, you can't blame them. No one reports back to them how well their former students turned out.
Parents, however, still raise their children from year to year, and know how their children turn out.
Over the past three decades the quality of schools has suffered, but the real issue is that the quality of parenting has suffered. Dads leave their wives and children, or just don't pay attention to their emotional needs, or just assume the teachers are taking care of things.
Back in my days as an educator, it seemed some parents considered me a civil servant encharged with raising their children. This attitude confuses in loco parentis with actual parenting.
My guess is that the students who benefit most from 64/207 are the ones who either work really hard on their own, and/or have really involved parents.
All that said, as taxpayers we have a responsibility to ensure that our payments to the school district are being used wisely. A measure of discernment when meeting teachers, as Mr. Bean suggests, seems wise.
"...sophisticated statistical inferences..."
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Anon 2:23 - I am a parent with kids in d64 and d207. While there have been many decent, good and very good teachers over the years, I can testify that there are some terrible (yes), youth-hating (maybe not hating, and maybe not all youth, but certainly actively disliking some of the kids) and dullard (absolutely!) teachers in those districts. Unfortunately, I'll have to agree with Bean's TMI rule here and not post anything specific on a public forum.
It takes quite some time to realize and believe that any teacher is that bad. And typically there are OK periods and bad periods throughout the school year, so you often think it's improving or is at least tolerable. Thinking that you'd immediately pull your kids and find other options is quite simplistic.
All of your kids' teachers have been outstanding? Really? There's no mediocre gym teacher in there anywhere? While I do think our school districts are good, I'd stop way short of saying all d64 and d207 teachers are excellent. Perhaps you have lower standards than I do.
Mr. Butterly:
According to the tests Maine South is number 13 out of 656 schools ranked. Maine East is 223. Now in your simple black and white world that means the teachers at Maine East must suck, right??
They are already are performance tested by these existing tests. Gee, I wonder why they have concerns about that.
7:07:
What exactly did these "many teachers" do??
Anon: 10:08AM
According to what tests?
I reviewed the PRU post and the Sun Times article looking for a reference to a specific test or tests that placed Maine South 13th out of 656 schools ranked. Couldn’t find anything for Maine South or East.
Further, I reviewed my message to see if I had mentioned a specific test. Again, there was none.
So, what is your issue? Are you just in a pissy mood? Or were you just blowing smoke?
Anon: 10:08AM , do you disagree or not agree with my definition of teaching? If not, what is your definition?
Further, if you do not like my method of determining teacher performance, tell me, do you have any other method of determining the effective transfer of knowledge and skills from the teacher to the student?
All I see from from the tenor of your message, is anger and possibly frustration. Maybe you know that what I am saying is true, and maybe, you just can’t handle the truth.
As to the dramatic differences in ranking of the two Maine Township #207 High Schools you’ve sighted, I would say that there is a problem, and I am sure, that the Administration is hard at work analyzing the situation and developing a solution. At least, I hope so.
Finally, since you did not see fit to inform us of the name of the test or tests you sited, I am in no position to respond further.
I have to apologize to May 14, 2010 10:08 AM. You did not mention the Prairie State test, the article did.
Gotta get new glasses!
However, I stand by the rest of my last message.
Mr Butterly:
I saw the article PRU referenced and went to the Suntimes site. Considering the date (10/30/09) I would think it would have to be from recent data.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/1854961,top-100-high-schools-1009.article
/
12:34 - I'm not 7:07, but here are a few examples:
- Scream at kids and tell them how horrible they are
- Provide instructional material with grammatical and spelling mistakes that also include incorrect information about the topic
- Spend 5 minutes grading a 5 page essay that took hours to write and assigning a grade based on things like the number of sentences in a paragraph
- "Teaching" by reading to the class from a textbook
I have more good things than bad to say about d64 and d207, but I'm very surprised that there is anyone who hasn't had any less than great experiences with our teachers.
"I need feedback on the following question.
Do you believe that it is possible for one human being, to teach everything they know about a specific subject to another human being, over a limited period of time?
I am writing an article on this subject for future posting at Butterly on Education and would like your comments and opinions.
So, what do my fellow commenter’s think?"
3:18:
I am not making this up. I will admit that I have no experience with 207 as yet but I have what I would consider to be a great deal of experience with lower and middle schools. That would include my own kids and neighbors and fellow members of various PR "social" organizations. I have had many discussions with parents of kids. I have never experienced anything like that and have never heard this kind of thing from any other parent.
I will be sending some time with quite a few other parents at several functions this weekend. I will revisit the topic with them. I do take comfort in you having more good things to say than bad.
Kenneth Butterly: "Do you believe that it is possible for one human being, to teach everything they know about a specific subject to another human being, over a limited period of time?"
Questions backatcha...
1) What is the first human being's "skill level/aptitude" for teaching?
2) What is the second human being's "skill level/aptitude" for learning?
3) Is everything the first human being knows about a subject also "limited" and/or "coverable" in said "limited period of time?"
Bean,
First of all, thank you for responding. Let's see if I can clarify the scenario based upon your questions.
Questions 1 & 2:
Both parties, teacher and learner, are capable of performing their tasks.
Question 3:
The teacher is experienced and very knowledgable in the subject being taught.
A limited time frame for performing the task could, for arguments sake, be a college semester.
Does this help?
Kenneth Butterly,
Given your answers to my questions 1 & 2, and the "limits/boundaries" of your answer to my question 3...
My answer to your original...
"Do you believe that it is possible for one human being, to teach everything they know about a specific subject to another human being, over a limited period of time?"
...is "no." I answer "no" because of the "everything they know" and "very knowledgeable" aspects of your question and the "limit" of a "college semester."
I'm sure I don't need to detail a "life-time's worth" of knowledge/learning in a specific subject area vs. a semester's learning period...
...which then leads necessarily to what *should* a student be expected to know at the end of a given class/semester period?...what *should be* the standards?...and has the teacher transferred the knowledge required to meet the standards?
...and I believe D64 took a stab at answering those questions in their "Educational Ends" effort, while at the same time they made sure to keep chanting "we teach the WHOLE child, we teach the WHOLE child"...and emphasizing their refusal to "teach to the test"...except when NCLB results are received, then "adjustments" are made...and the chanting continues...
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
Thank you Bean,
Your response was perfect and exactly the type of response I was looking for.
Now, any one else care to share their ideas on this subject?
Mr. Butterly:
Sorry for being a pest but you have not replied to my question about the dramatic difference between Maine South (13th) versus Maine East. Wehn people talk about 207 not being top 100 that is true but it would seem Maine South is doing just fine.
Anon May 16, 2010 2:20 PM:
It is impossible, within the restrictions of this venue's message thread, to explain with any specificity, the reason or reasons why Maine South performed better than Maine East in these two tests. To attempt to do so, with so little data and preconceived notions and prejudices, would be at best, unhelpful. That said; let me shamelessly propose this idea to you. I publish a blog “Butterly on Education.” The site is specifically geared to dealing with school related issues. Meet me there, let’s see is we can’t get to the heart of your question and even an answer an additional question or two in the process.
Mr. Butterly:
I have seen your blog. Considering the original topic of this thread, which focuesd on salaries and test scores, I think my question is entirely appropriate. Having said that, to a degree you make my point for me. That is that there are a myriad of factors related to test performance. To use your words, they are too many to cover in this medium would be "unhelpful". It would appear that is what the Suntimes article did. They took a very complex issue and looked at tow pieces of data - salary and test scores. Well it would appear that even within just our own little district 207 just focusing on those two data points alone is virtually meaningless.
Mr Butterly??? Hello??
Anon May 19, 2010 3:15 PM;
Sorry, I thought we were moving the conversation “to my place.”
Yes, I did make your point.
If you would like to discuss the difference in test scores further, and in more detail, you’ll find me at Butterly on Education.
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