#1 -- How will they plan to spend your money?
Beginning tonight at 7 p.m. at Park Ridge City Hall, the City Council will hold a Special City Council Meeting & Budget Workshop COW. If you have any interest in watching sausage being made the budget process unfold, as your elected representatives discuss how best to screw up plan for the future of the City of Park Ridge, we encourage you to attend.
#2 -- How have they spent your money?
Some of our faithful PRU readers may have noticed a new link we've added -- Butterly On Education. The PRU Crew heartily welcomes another blogger to the public policy discussion fun!
For Park Ridge taxpayers interested in seeing how School District 64 has spent your money, the Butterly blog has posted a Nine-Year Report – Park Ridge School District #64 for your reading displeasure.
March 29, 2010
Monday Money Puzzle Twofer!
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28 comments:
Too bad the nine year report is only a one page document that contains the salary for the superintendent. Can't seem to access the rest of the report.
The argument would have worked better for me if you had just shown me 2009 numbers.
So they beat inflation by 2.19%. On a 100K job that is 2190.00 pre- tax. Every teacher that my kids have had at d64 does not make near 100K and some have been teaching well over 10 years and have masters. If you backout 2009 it goes down to beating inflation by 1.38%.
In 2009 the numbers turned in their favor becuase they had the "protection" of the contract. There will be a struggle and concessions will be made. In a few years when things turn around you will have a period where they do not beat inflation....and so on and so on and so on.
12:49 PM
Whine about beating inflation to all the people in town who lost their jobs, or who took pay decreases just to keep them for a 12-month work year instead of a 8-10 month year.
And whine about those teachers who don't make close to $100K but who can retire after 30 years with a defined benefit pension, not some 401(k) plan.
No wonder so many kids are such whiny cake-eaters: they're taught by whiny cake-eaters.
To Anon 11:12 AM:
This report was designed to give the reader a quick look at yearly pay for all of the Teachers and Administrators and the Superintendent, separately. To do this type of report for a nine-year period for every District #64 employee takes close to 40 hours in Excel, the tool the reports were created in. At the moment, I am in the midst of producing the current one page report for 30+ school districts within this region. Takes about an hour to produce each one. Finally, I am doing these reports for free.
To Anon 12:49 PM:
I’m not sure I understand your comment about showing 2009 only.
The object of the exercise as I conceived it, was to see if there is a trend. There is. The trend is up, and significantly up at that. All Teachers & Administrators up 36.25% over the nine years is meaningful. The Superintendent’s pay increases are up 56.36% over the same period. That is substantially higher than the rate of inflation by 37.89%.
As I mentioned above, I am researching over 30 districts in the region. At this point, there appears to be a region wide trend in pay increases of larger than normal size between 2005 and 2009
Percentage increases are not the only yardstick used to view the data. As you can see, approximately half of the Superintendent’s nine-year total increase in dollars occurred within the last five years.
Lastly, all things being considered, how do you feel about this?
Why aren't we posting firemen and police salaries? Firemen are making 80,000+ after 5 years of service for doing a job where you can sleep! Police are making just as much at a job where they can't even follow simple procedures! If we are going to attack the teachers lets be fair and document the unfair salaries for the police and firemen who could be contracted out for almost half their salaries.
and we pay for their education too!
Anon@11:48 --
We feel you may require the attention of a whole team of doctors.
When the teachers in District 64 and 207 work year round schedules that require their agreement to potentially risk their lives in the performance of their duties, we will begin to take comments such as yours seriously.
Until then, we strongly urge you to seek professional help.
Anon: 11:48 AM
I don't see myself as an attacker of teachers, administrators, board members, or fireman for that matter.
Is it wrong to publically ask the teachers union to give up part of it's contracted pay increase to save the jobs of other union teachers?
Is it wrong to publically acknowledge that a School District has in the past, committed the taxpayers to unseemly pay raises for some teachers and administrators, specifically Superintendents; and to display the data underlying the observation.
Is it wrong to publically challenge a local School Board to perform its responsibility to maximize the expenditure of each tax-paid dollar toward the education of the children they purport to serve?
Is it wrong to publically display the District's dirty payroll laundry for public scrutiny?
I'm of the opinion that it is! I believe further, that it is the responsibility of every taxpaying citizen to do likewise if they have that ability.
Mr. Butterly --
We believe you meant to say you don't believe it's wrong to do any of the things you've listed.
Further, 11:48 has continued to submit ranting, lunatic, delusional comments which we've opted not to publish. We strongly suggest you not waste your time in addressing the lunatic fringe elements in the community.
Finally, if 11:48 is whom we suspect he may be, the justice system may be taking aim at the target painted on his back due to his fraudulent business practices and the pressure is causing him to lash out on topics which he knows virtually nothing about.
PRU 12:39:
Absolutely. I meant to say that I don't believe it's wrong to do any of those things.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes.
Mr. Butterly:
Let me get this straight. If someone came out and said that Buisness Management Consultants were arrogant, unprofessional, selfish whiners who did not care about their clients or their fellow man for that matter and were lucky to have a job at all, you would not feel as if they were attacking your profession.
Of course it is not wrong to do anything you have listed in your post. It your right to do so. But to do so and sit back and say I am not attacking is a cop out.
Let Park Ridge decrease their teacher salaries and take away all the benefits and then see what happens to their schools. Once the schools go, your property value goes, your tax base will go, and your government will have less money to do more with. It's amazing that a place where people move to raise children is now attacking teacher salaries. The teachers are getting their market rate and those jobs are very competitive to get. As a businessman I think the teachers are paid fairly, maybe get rid of tenure across the board, but I moved hear for the schools and if they stop paying them what the market demands our property values will drop.
Anonymous @ 3:44,
Oh puleeze...yeah, right...the only things standing between preserving the value of PR property and ghost-town doom are the teachers and their salaries?
...uh...then how do you explain the current real estate market values slip-sliding away...?
...by your reasoning, the taxpayers should be willing to fork-over double the amount of property taxes...since, ya know...teacher salaries are directly tied to property values...and everybody could use a little ROI...
pppppfffffttttt!
Credit/lending markets?...we don't need no stinkin' credit/lending markets!
There's certainly a relationship between good schools, the local real estate market, and re-salability...but ALL of those things have only ONE thing in common...
PARENTS!
Parents willing to work to afford the price of a home in a district with good schools.
Parents willing to work to pay the EVER INCREASING property taxes which fund good schools and teacher salaries.
Parents willing to be involved enouch in their kids' educations to ensure the schools/teachers actually DELIVER on what those PARENTS are paying for...
Parents willing to be involved enough with their kids to send them to school fairly well prepared to learn...
The teachers in the respective Park Ridge school districts would have everyone believe they are hitting educational home runs...despite being FORTUNATE enough to work in a district that has essentially provided with with a third-base berth (pun intended!)...through the work and efforts of PARENTS and TAXPAYERS!
Teacher salaries aren't being "attacked" by anybody...the entitlement attitudes of far too many union/tenured educators are being attacked...and rightfully so, imnsho! Teachers, in general, might be paid "fairly" according to majority opinion...or not. ...but nobody, NOBODY, can deny teachers aren't paid VERY WELL for the work they perform...ESPECIALLY in the repsective Park Ridge school districts...and do not forget the generous guaranteed pension benefits taxpayers ALSO fund, for the rest of those teachers' lives...beginning as early as age 55.
...and teachers seem blissfully ignorant about what it's like to work in an environment (12 FULL MONTHS A YEAR!) where market forces actually dictate whether or not you get a raise in pay!
pppppppppppfffffffffffttttttttttt...some more!
Bean:
I just have to disagree(about the VERY WELL part). With all these posts and the link to Champion I looked at the salary of every teacher and administrator that I have worked with. I will be clear that this is only D64 as I do not have a child at MS - yet. I guess it comes down to what a persons definition of very well is, but one of the teachers my family is working with this year is listed as having 12 yrs and a Masters. I relaize that years and a degree do not a good teacher make but I will tell my experience (and that of other parents I know) is that this teacher is excellent! This teacher is listed at 61K.....61K!!!!! Now I guess that data is 2008 but even if you factor in the 5.33% that would be a raise of about 200 a month after taxes.
By the way how many of you actually work 12 full months a year??? I guess some do but I would also guess that many of you get paid vacation. I know that I do. I rarely use all my vacation days but if that were the case I would technically work 11 months a year.
Anon 2:32:
Gee, where do I start?
Although you did not specify “all” Business Management Consultants” in your remarks, I will add the word "all" because it was implied.
You asked:
“If, someone came out and said that (all) Buisness Management Consultants were arrogant, unprofessional, selfish whiners who did not care about their clients or their fellow man for that matter and were lucky to have a job at all, you would not feel as if they were attacking your profession.”
First question: Did I actually use or imply the word all?
I reread all the postings on Butterly on Education and could find no use of that word in a context as implied in your analogy.
Second question: Have letters to editors from MTA teachers or surrogates for MTA teachers been published?
Yes they have. Some are quite unremarkable. If they are in fact are representative of the prevalent teacher attitude at District #207 or a school system located anywhere else on the planet, I would restate the following:
Enough whining already! It’s unseemly. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it! You are not indispensable and you and I know that your position can be eliminated. Of course, if you think you can do better, you can always quit. Now, let's get on with the job!
Third question: Am I attacking the profession?
If I were attacking the teaching profession, you would have known it.
I have friends in the industry; good friends. Sane people do not attack their friends. But because we are friends, I can tell them the truth as I see it. I can do so because I know that they are not psychologically fragile. And, those who are my good friends know they can be that honest with me.
If there was cop out, it came from you!
Anon 3:44 PM:
Teachers in District #207, I assume that is the district you are discussing, are not having their salaries decreased. As a matter of fact, the MTA (teachers union) recently voted to not reopen negotiations with the district, insuring the remaining teachers their yearly percentage increase and additional step increases. No one is taking anything away from the remaining teachers. However, more teaching positions will be cut than would have otherwise been cut had the union not taken it’s current stand.
There is no study available to the public, using empirical data, correlating property values and their associated taxes, directly to schools. Over the years, real-estate agents have used this argument to sell homes. I would argue that in these days, higher taxes have more to do with someone not moving to a given location than perceived quality of the schools located within the district.
Are teachers getting their market rate? Taxpayer Funded Education is a closed industry, a monopoly. Districts and unions control the price, not the market. Take away the unions, and teacher salaries would become market-driven. I agree however, that there are a lot of teachers, many without jobs or making a lot less money in the Chicago Public School system, who would love to have a high-paying teaching job at District #207.
You stated, that you think that the teachers are being paid fairly. Fairly, what do you mean? By who’s standard? I think that some of these teachers are over-paid, by my standard. I don’t know any private driver education instructor that makes $150,000+. How about you?
Lastly, property values are not directly connected to what teachers get paid any more than the value of your company, to your customers, has anything directly to do with your salary. Unless of course, you are a one-man shop!
Cheers!
Anon 4:29 PM:
When you were calculating your vacation time, were you including your paid week off for Thanksgiving or the paid week over Christmas or the paid week off for Spring break? What about those personel business or sick days? Did you factor in the time available for that sabbatical you've got coming?
Oh, I almost forgot. Were all of these days available to you in your first year?
Gosh I hope so!
6:16:
Of course I did not calculate those things as I do not get them. I was just simply pointing out that most of us do not work a 12 month job as so many here crow about. But I gotta be honest and say that if the requirement to get those things you listed is to accept the 61K a year I mentioned earlier, well, I will stay right where I am thank you very much!!
Mr Butterly:
I am continuing to look at all of the data you have provided. Thanks again for your work. Two quick questions.
1. You list the data as representing 12 months for each year. Can you clarify what that means considering that unless they teach summer school most would only be 9 months.
2. Do you know what the total amount of teachers and admin are included in this data. I am coming up with 385 which would breakdown to an average of 74K per person.
Thanks again.
Anon 8:29PM:
In answer to your first question:
I used 12 months for the combined Teachers and Administrators section. I did this because administrators work 12 months, and I did not wish to take on the extra work of separating nine-month employees from twelve-month employees. Also, I wanted apples-to-apples consistency in months when reviewing the Superintendent’s salary. Finally, I wanted to keep the report to one page.
I realize that it would be helpful at some point to give you a yearly value for (9 mo) non-administrative employees. Let me think about that issue. However, I need time now to publish all the other district reports before I tackle anything else.
The number of employees for each year are as follows:
Year # T and A
----- ------------
2001 369
2002 376
2003 378
2004 382
2005 375
2006 361
2007 377
2008 391
2009 392
----- ------------
Avg 378
May I make a suggestion? Go to Butterly on Education over the next few weeks. I will be posting similar reports for over 30 districts in our region. Look at the reports and compare their data to District #64’s. You’ll then get a real sense of the magnitude of the problem.
Hope this is helpful.
Nice comment about how firemen making 80k to sleep. They get that salary to protect you while you sleep. And sleep oh so well in your 600K house making your 6 digit salaries. Cry me a river. Firemen and Police are compensated because the service is needed at all hours of the day. No matter what the situation or risk involved. And what job do have? What is the likely hood that you may have to risk your life to help someone you don't know. I kiss my kids goodbye everytime I leave my house, MY MUCH SMALLER HOUSE, FAR FAR AWAY, because my salary will not allow me to reside in this town. The town I dedicate my life to protecting. The lives that I have helped with these hands, the blood from strangers on my uniform, the risk I personally take to help YOU. I am reduced to a line item on a budget. A budget that once again falls on the shoulders of its employees to balance. I'll be more then happy to sleep easy in your shoes, but I'd sure love to see how you fair 1 day in mine
April 1 - Anon 7:33
Well Mr. 80k Fireman, you have my attention.
1. If you are lucky enough to be a Fireman in the 80k salary range, you are financially better off than the majority of firefighters in cities larger than Park Ridge. To the question: What does a Fireman Make? WikiAnswers states: “It depends on where you are. For example Clark County Nevada (the County Las Vegas sits in), Firefighters make 56% more on average than the national average. Salaries are posted online on a website called transparentnevada (.com) where you will see that with overtime and the way contracts are written many firefighters (basic ones) make more than $55,000-$70,000 a year. However, over 90% of firefighters in the US are volunteer and make very little for their work.”
2. How dare you disrespect the people who live in this community, work hard, and pay inflated real-estate taxes. The fact that they live in a 600k house or make $100k+ in order to do so, is not your business. Further, $100k is not a lot of money if it takes two people to earn it. One more thing, they are taxed quite heavily in Cook County on that 600k house.
3. “Firemen and Police are compensated because the service is needed at all hours of the day.” Really, their level of compensation is based on working 24/7? No, Park Ridge’s Firemen and Policemen are compensated as well as they are, because their union leaders did a good job at the bargaining table and because the community that employs them, has, at least up to this point, been able pay the price.
4. Yes, policemen and firemen take risks. Risks come with the job. It’s one of the reasons you chose your profession. Risk is what makes firefighting and police work exciting. If you didn’t want risk, you’d be sitting behind a desk!
5. “And what job do have?” Do I really have to answer that?
6. “What is the likely hood that you may have to risk your life to help someone you don't know. I kiss my kids goodbye every time I leave my house…” Do you really think that you are the only one in a high-risk job who kisses his or her children goodbye when they leave their home? Ask the Soldiers and Marines who have shipped out, some more than once, to Iraq and Afghanistan, how they felt when they kissed their wives and children goodbye in order to protect our sorry behinds.
7. Envy seems to be the underlying current that propels your rant. If you want to have a house in Park Ridge, and if you are even half way resourceful, you will find away. Personally, I would have been too embarrassed to make that statement in public.
8. “The town I dedicate my life to protecting.” Really? I don’t think so. If firefighting is not the job of your dreams and you feel that you are underpaid or under appreciated and would rather do something else, than do what the rest of us do, quit.
9. I won’t even comment on the self-serving statement regarding heroic acts. . However, I will comment on your belief that you have been reduced to being a budget line item. All of us non-public servants out here are line items on someone’s budget. If the organization we work for tanks, we’re history. You are, in my opinion, one lucky stiff. You have a job and a contract! Many of the tax-paying citizens of Park Ridge and neighboring communities are working very hard to pay for firefighting services. A lot of them are in financial trouble. Some have already taken pay cuts. Others are already unemployment statistics.
10. To your closing comment: “I'll be more then happy to sleep easy in your shoes, but I'd sure love to see how you fair 1 day in mine.” Is that an offer?
Anon@10:05 --
When you copy and paste an answer off the web, make sure you actually read the answer carefully before you copy and paste it somewhere.
We edited the objectionable link contained in your origianl comment and reposted it. We almost never do that and aren't pleased about doing it for you. PRU.ADMIN allowed it this time due to the length of your comment and our belief that you were momentarily careless.
Park Ridge Underground 10:20.
Went back and reviewed the original text. I now know what you are talking about.
Sorry about the additional work I put you through.
Won't happen again.
Dear Mr. WikiPedia
My original response was geared towards one ignorant person who belittled our profession however I would like to respond to you.
1) That entire copy and pasted reference is off of WIKIPEDIA, anybody can add whatever they want to wikipedia, its not factual. Any moderately intelligent person knows that.
2)FACT: Park Ridge residents pay less per capita for their services then ALL surrounding neighborhoods.
3)Pay is to be competitive with surrounding areas, not the country. Just like Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants..etc in this area make more then the same in LARGER cities elsewhere.
4)Nobody takes a job as a firefighter or police officer because they want the excitement of risking their lives. They do it because they enjoy helping people and have a unique skill set that others may not have. Not everybody can care for a dying person or handle being covered in the blood of a stranger, let alone run into a burning building or subdue a criminal...etc. It requires mental and physical toughness to do so.
5) Sure why not answer that: Obviously you want to draw comparisons to your own personal sacrifices. I mean you seem to speak from vast experience. Enlighten us.
6) I never said we are the only risk involved profession. And several of our police and firefighters are ex-military as well. What risks have you taken for your City and Country?
7) I'm not envious, I love where I live and I love my job and have always loved helping people of this community. But I don't love being disrespected and belittled for my sacrifices, as to why I addressed that individual so harshly.
8) I'm sorry that you have identified yourself as a quitter. Its a shame that when things are rough, you quit. See quitting is not an option in this profession. People need help and this is as much of lifestyle as it is a profession.
9) Times are tough, no doubt. The public safety portion of your taxes is not the problem. Its the lack of foresight that this city has had for years in finding ways to generate revenue. I do find it funny when people complain about taxes and struggling when they are driving their Lexus, sipping their Starbucks while their AuPair watches their children and their landscaper cares for their yard.
10) And yes it is an offer. But I'm sure you would quit after a few hours. And this town needs real men and women to serve and protect it. And while I'm doing your job, have your secretary bring a turkey sub from Jimmy Johns and a diet coke (gotta watch my weight).
Dear Anon 11:10 AM,
Yes, I know what your original response was. And now, in this latest diatribe you are going to what; make me believe that you are filled with self-pity, ignorant, arrogant and envious, again?
1.) I chose to quote “WikiPedia” because Blog “comments” do not allow for attaching other web sites where the Wiki data was for the most part supported. Because I cannot yet prove the truth of the statement: “However, over 90% of firefighters in the US are volunteer and make very little for their work.” I hereby rescind it.
2.) I don’t care what we pay you!
3.) The amount of pay you receive is the amount your union representative was able to negotiate. Most Doctors, Lawyers and Accounts are not union (at least not yet) and their bargaining tools under the free market system are their competence, experience and education and reputation. You sir are not dealing with apples and apples.
4.) Nobody takes a job as a firefighter or police officer because they want the excitement of risking their lives? Are you serious? I am 64 years old. I’ve been around the block. I have family and friends who were firemen and police officers. When we sat around the kitchen table after dinner to talk “shop,” none of them talked about polishing trucks or filling out reports in triplicate. It was talk of the adrenalin rush when taking down a perp or fighting a 4-11 that left their lips. It still is!
Do you have a unique skill set? Not really. Doctors and nurses deal with death and trauma and the blood of strangers every day. How do they fit on your worthiness scale?
5.) Want to know about me? I’m 64 years old and retired. I’ve had a wonderful life. I’m not financially rich but I am very rich in friends. I’ve been flush and I’ve been dirt poor. I’ve worked for others and owned my own companies where I employed other professionals, who, on many occasions, took home more money than I did. It wasn’t unusual for me to consistently work 60 to 70 hour weeks. And I loved every damn minute of it! Am I a hero? No, but I don’t purport to be one.
6.) As to my service, it’s not your business. Let’s just leave it at three-years, nine-months and seven-days and a wake-up in the US Navy (1966-1969), and be done with it.
7.) I believe that you are envious. And I don’t care about your personal sacrifices. You obviously seem to be feeling a lack of something. That other guy didn’t belittle you personally. But you sure have done a very good job of diminishing yourself.
8.) Go back and READ #8. I was suggesting that should you find yourself unhappy in your situation, you should quit. By the way, quitting is always a viable option. For the record: Quitting is not the same as giving up!
9.) “I do find it funny when people complain about taxes and struggling when they are driving their Lexus, sipping their Starbucks while their AuPair watches their children and their landscaper cares for their yard.” If that’s not a statement based on envy, then I don’t know what envy is. By the way, I own a Corolla. I drink McSwill. And, I cut my own grass!
10.) Finally, the offer. Anon 11:10, I’ve been putting out other peoples fires all of my professional life. Now, at 64 I am a bit long on the tooth and very much out of shape. No, you go fight the fires!
Mr. Wikipedia
You got me, I'm envious, I'm envious of how you have navigated through life for 64 years and have remained this clueless. Bravo!!!
1) you rescinded
2) you say you don't care but obviously you do.
3) It is apples to apples, every job out there is compensated according to its demographics regardless if its union or not. Nearly all professions base compensation on competition within its COLA area.
4)Of course when you are sitting with friends, you are going to mention things exciting, its called keeping the other party interested. To say fire and police do not possess a skill set, just proves how truly ignorant you are and it is this ignorance that fueled the original response.
5)Congrats on the retirement, you now have plenty of time to spend on wikipedia and misc blogs arguing with the world.
6)Thank you for your service to your country, just imagine if people whom have never served, regarded your service and sacrifice as: simple, easily done, skill-less, over-compensated and expendable. I mean cmon, I'm sure when you were serving in the Navy you just slept on the boat right. Angry now? You should be! Now you know why I was angered by the original comment.
7)Envy...Please, The mere statement from you that anybody is envious is to suggest that you are better.
8) Quit..."Is to give up" (websters dictionary) and Wiktionary. FACT
9)Next time buy American
10)I'm so glad that you have put out other peoples "Fires". And yes I will continue to put out fires and help those in need, but I will have to do it with less equipment and less personnel, thus making it more risky for you and me and for what $$$. The money that you will save on your tax bill for laying off 3 firefighters will cost you 3 times that on your homeowners insurance next year. That's a lot less McSwill for you.
Have a Happy Easter
Anon: 6:32
Here's something I can agree with you on!
Happy Easter!
Mr. Wikipedia
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