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Back on October 18, 2007 we put up a blog post we titled "Pool of Money!" Back then the Park Ridge Recreation and Park District was discussing what to do with Oakton Pool -- whether or not to sink more money into costly repairs for a money-losing, outdoor pool or close it down.
Once again at tonight's meeting (agenda.pdf), a mere two and a half years later, the Park Ridge Recreation and Park District will be discussing and likely voting on what to do with Oakton Pool -- whether or not to sink more money into costly repairs for a money-losing, outdoor pool or close it down.
What may make the difference in the Park Board's discussion, vote and follow-through action this time around is the fact that the new Park District Director -- we refer to him as the "Big O", Mr. Ray Ochromowicz -- has been very clear about what he feels the correct and responsible decision should be, and he has recommended to the Park Board that the Oakton Pool be shut down at the end of this season. Considering both Oakton Pool's records of attendance and revenue losses, we can't argue with the "Big O's" recommendation to the Park Board.
So anyone who may be interested in this subject should get themselves over to the Maine Park Leisure Center at 2701 Sibley Avenue for the regular Park Board meeting set to begin tonight at 7:30 p.m.
June 17, 2010
Again! -- Pool Of Money!
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32 comments:
I just hope they do not do what government always does and that is make a decision in a vacuum. While many have pointed out that the pool looses money, that does not mean that closing it will not affect other services that the PD offers. Now is the time to consider those services and how they will have to be changed (or axed) once Oakton closes.
For example, The PD currently offers (and charges for) summer camps that are held at the Main Park District building on Sibley. Those camps walk to Oakton pool for swimming. So what happens next year?? Do they offer camps with no swimming? Will people even want to go to these camps? Do they bus them over to Centenial or Hinkley? Can Centenial even handle the increased volume? Cars were parked down Western earlier today and there are many camps that already swim at that pool.
I am not trying to make a case for keeping the pool open. I am just hoping the PD board looks at all the issues.
3:38....good point.
I'm sure that hasn't been discussed, talked about or planned for in the 48 months this has been discussed by the Park District.
Anon 3:38,
You say the parks charge for the camps and it sounds like you are saying people pay for the swimming, that the camp charge covers the cost of the swimming. You also sound like you are saying that if there isn't swimming with the camps then people may not want them. How much time do the campers spend swimming? If it is so much time that all of a sudden the camp wouldn't be worh the price then it also sounds like first, the camp charges aren't covering the costs for Oakton because it looses money every year and second, that you think taxpayers should continue to subsidize the Oakton swimming for the camps.
My kids have gone to camps not part of the park district and guess what, they didn't have swimming and guess what else, we had to pay an extra charge for field trips to swimming places like Mystic Waters. Maybe the park district camps should think about charging for field trips like that.
4:16:
Again, I was not trying to defend Oakton or the fees that the PD charges (for camps or otherwise). I just hope someone is thinking about all of the issues.
The suggestions you make about pricing or field trips seem like good ones. I think they deserve thought and consideration by the Park District. Again, I hope that is happening.
Related to your question about how much they swim. I can tell you from the recent past that some of the campsswim 3-4 times a week. Other camps are nature related and they probably swimm less but the camps doe use the pools quite a bit. If there was a choice between a camp at sibley that had no swimming versus a camp at centenial that had swimming, it would seem to me most would choose the one with the pool.
LOL. Doesn't anybody run through the sprinkler any more? Why back in my day__ Oh, never mind.
Anon 4:23,
I understand what you are saying but it still sounds like the camp swimming is covered by taxpayers and not camp charges, even if you aren't trying to make that argument.
The camps at sibley could still go to centenail but camp charges would have to cover the prices for buses if nobody wanted to hike the way there.
Doesn't anyone run thru sprinklers anymore? Doesn't anyone walk or bike to their neighborhood pool anymore? Doesn't anyone think that water is a top draw for a reason? Doesn't anyone think, period?
TBA.
I don't have a fixed opinion on this, but here's what I wonder.
How come Oakton has fallen into such disrepair, Especially since the other 2 pools are older?
Also with all this mention of low attendence, how come is that?
I figure no matter how many pools a town has, there's always people in the neighborhoods they serve who are gonna use them. Why not Oakton?
Especially since it's larger than the other 2.
MIKE:
I don't have all the fact, but I think Oakton is just old and is at the end of its life, and the diving well problem was an engineering.
I thought Hinkly was overhauled not too long ago but my family hasn't been in here forever so I might not remember it right. I do remember seeing signs all over the place about that pool when we first came to town.
People do use Oakton but not enough of them to pay for the upkeep and repairs.
Per our sources --
Motion to close Oakton defeated 4 to 3. Biagi, O'Brien and Maloney voted to close. Herman, Brandt, Vile and Wynn-Ryan voted to keep it open.
Now the irresponsible board members are known. They will spend till the bitter end.
For those of you that are reading this and thinking that you're not a swimmer or you don't swim at Oakton so it's not your problem. and that it's ok that the Park District keeps this pool open because it doesn't really impact you. Think again.
Every year the Park District throws a $100,000 loss on the books because of Oakton Pool.
Could that money be spent to:
Add things at your pool for you or your kids to use (Splash Pads, Water Slides)?
Renovate that playground in your neighborhood?
Update fitness equipment at the Community Center?
(God Forbid) Reduce the amount of debt the Park District carries?
(God Forbid) Reduce your taxes?
Just askin.
We all ought to be up in arms that 40 selfish people (a good chunk of whom were not residents of Park Ridge, and thus don't pay taxes here) who use that pool convinced 4 Commissioners that it's in the best interest of all residents to keep this pool open.
7:59,
Well said.
I thought with the director's recommendation and the obvious problems at the Oakton pool, the commissioners would get it right.
They sure fooled me!
I didn't even think about how I should go to the meeting to put my two cents in to talk about not losing any more of my money on the Oakton pool or anything else. The choice wasn't to close it right now but after this season. It seemed so obvious what the answer was!
Un how do you those those 40 people you mention aren't PR residents?
Where was this news about 40 people attending and swaying the park board found? I have yet to find any evidence of it.
Mike,
Because I was at the meeting and before anyone speaks at Park Board meetings, they are asked to provide their name and address.
The affiliate group /swim team that swims at that pool is called the "Des Plaines River Racers."
There is no longer a Park Ridge Swim Club in this town. It is true that some of the swimmers that swim for the Des Plaines River Racers live in Park Ridge, but it is less than 65% of the team/affiliate.
Even the swimmers that use Oakton from 6:00 - 8:00 AM for the lap swim, while many were residents, many were not.
Bottom-line, very few people use that pool period, and of those users a healthy number live and pay taxes to places other than Park Ridge.
If you are ok with that,that's great. I'm not.
No one was there to defend the 37,000 residents of Park Ridge who lose $100,000 a year there.
I swim at Centennial and I would rather see that money spent at that pool because it has gotten more crowded each summer because no one goes to Oakton anymore, and the Park District needs to address the growing crowds at Centennial, not keep Oakton open.
Either that, or I'd rather see the money not spent at all, but to spend it in the way it's being spent is a total waste and is happening because Mary Wynn Ryan, Steven Vile, David Herman, and Richard Brandt are spineless.
Anonymous @ 1022:
No news coverage.
No reporter for either of the newspapers was present, but that's what happened.
I apologise for my ignorance but I don't understand what all the problems are. Besides the numbers for users being low and it losing money, what is wrong at Oakton? Is there something wrong with the pool that is the reason so few people to use it? What would it cost to fix it up?
Not mentioned in any of the posts -
If something structurally happens to the Oakton pool that costs too much financially, the Oakton pool will permanently close.
That means approximately 150 daily users of the pool will have to attend either Hinckley or Centennial.
Let's say 50 go to Hinckley and 50 go to Centennial. The rest stop swimming Where are those folks going to park their cars?
A ton of the camps from the Park District utilize the Oakton pool. If the pool closes, there will be less open swim at Hinckly and Centennial. Do folks realize that?
Once capacity is permanently removed, it is gone forever.
The other 3 pools lose money as well. Perhaps the Park District should close Centenial. It is not a money maker. It will cost millions to upgrade those facilities too. That pool will need to be structurally redone within the next 5-7 years.
How about the Park District closes the Senior Center first? That loses 3 times the amount of the Oakton pool, and serves even a smaller segment of the community.
So are the 4 jellyfish that voted not to close Oakton foolish? Perhaps! However, you don't close off capacity without a concrete plan on how to serve all of the pool users. That should be presented first, before rushing to close capacity and anger the consumer.
Anonymous @ 1:16,
Considering the willingness of 4 "jellyfish" on the Park Board to continue losing more money on Oakton pool...+/- $100K annually...could you define what you mean by "costs too much financially" in relation to "something structurally" happening at Oakton pool?
...and of those "150 daily users" you mentioned, didn't somebody here say a significant portion of the accounted for users are NOT Park Ridge residents?...and as somebody else here mentioned, should the taxpayers have to subsidize use of Oakton pool for campers, when those camps and campers could choose to operate like other non-PRRPD camps and pack up the kiddies for a field trip paid for by their parents?
I strongly disagree with your saying "once capacity is gone it's gone forever"...that's just balderdash if not total stupidity. If a majority of taxpayers want more outdoor water (should Oakton's capacity be eliminated from the PRRPD's pool of pool capacity) and AGREE and VOTE to spend the money, then "forever" isn't the problem you proclaim it to be.
Oakton pool is the PRRPD's biggest money loser and the least well-attended and, I suspect, those are the reasons that pool has been considered for closure...but if you want to close the Senior Center and spend PRRPD money on Oakton instead, that would suite my taxpayer-mind just fine...I despise the Senior Center and its membership's grabby, self-entitled, demanding ways.
If the "angry consumers" of Oakton pool can convince a majority of their fellow taxpayers to keep spending money on Oakton, that's the way democracy works...but I get the feeling that it's a very small number of "consumers" who would be angry about the closing of Oakton pool...and the rest of the taxpaying residents of Park Ridge...well beyond some portion of the 40 who showed up to grouse about being denied their "consumers rights" to Oakton...wouldn't be nearly as "angry" as you're suggesting.
Anon 1:16,
You say the park district shouldn't rush to close Oakton?
This issue has been up for discussion for more than 2 yrs!!!!
You think 2 yrs is rushing????
Does anyone know what points or arguments that the 40ish people put across to the board or who exactly these people were?
1:03 AM....
Arguements covered the following ground (and I'm not kidding):
--Oakton provides jobs for life guards. Kids in town need those jobs.
--Oakton is one of the few 50 meter pools left in Illinois
--Oakton is the only pool where athletes can actually swim
--Oakton can be a money maker but the Park District is not marketing the pool properly.
--It's a neighborhood pool that we can walk to (I'm assuming this only pertains to a few people that actually can walk to that pool).
--It's a historic pool where the Olympic Diving Trials were once held.
--Even though the pool loses money, it's ok because the Park District is not chartered with earning a profit.
--You need to provide this pool as a service to the area and not just Park Ridge. This person went on to say that Park Ridge residents head to the beaches of Chicago, Evanston, etc. and this pool is the same thing -- a service we provide to Illinois.
--It's a great pool to go to because it's not crowded.
--Park Ridge does not have too much water with this and all of our other pools.
I'm sure I missed a few, but that was the bulk of what convinced Dave Herman, Mary Whine Ryan, Steven Vile, and Dick Brandt.
8:50AM:
One of the reasons you stated was the following: "Even though the pool loses money, it's ok because the Park District is not chartered with earning a profit".
Are you suggesting that we close every pool that does not make money?? We would close all the pools. I am not defending Oakton - I have never even been in the pool there. But you act like Oakton is the only one. All the pools loose money!!! Your argument is not consistent. If Oakton losing money is bad is centenial losing money OK just becuase my family swims there??
The pools might not lose so much money if the cashiers showed up and took in the money, instead of the lifeguards just letting everyone in because they can't operate the register.
Why should we keep a pool open for out of towner when they have their own pools?
11:59....
What I typed were the arguements to keep open Oakton that were stated by the people in the room who wanted to keep Oakton open.
You stated that all the pools "loose" money. That is not accurate.
Last year Hinkley "made" $15,944 & South Park Wading Pool "made" $2,610.
I'm am using quotes around the word made because as long at the Park District takes a nickle in taxes, can we ever really say the pools or any of the Park District activities make money? So when I say "made money" I mean that there were excess revenue over expenses.
Hinkley & South Park have had excess revenue over expenses in each of the last three years. During that same time, Oakton lost $256,667 ($95,503 in '09, $96,635 in '08 and $64,529 in '07).
Centennial over the last three years has lost $59,867 ($13,757 in '09, $14,208 in '08, and $31,902 in '07).
I don't take the arguement on that Oakton should be closed simply because it loses money. I believe Oakton should be closed because there is too much water in Park Ridge and the attendance bears that out. Oakton costs the taxpayers the most and draws the least number of people (fewer than each of the other pools by a long margin).
Closing Oakton is the right thing to do. Unfortunately the Board has been swayed by emotion and not logic.
Anonymous @ 12:37:
That does not happen. It might have happened in the past, but not this year.
If you don't believe me, call the Director of the Park District yourself and ask him.
His name is Ray Ochromowicz and he can be reached at 847-692-3442.
I contacted him myself to follow-up on this and was told that what you claim happens on a regular basis, does not.
Has anyone attended Centennial pool the last couple of days?!?
It has been packed. The was no place to swim all afternoon, only people playing in the pool. They didn't have enough chairs. Even if they had more chairs, families were having to share one chair among three or more people.
In the parking lot, there were no empty spaces. People were having to park a couple of blocks down and walk.
Centennial will not be able to absorb more pool goers.
If this is a hot summer, unlike the last year, Centennial and Hinckley will not be enough water.
1:03:
Glad I am not the only one to noticed this. The parking spaces at centenial have always been small for the many SUV's in town but this year I have seen cars parked along western ave quite often. I would also say that if all the campers who go to Oakton were to go to Centenial they would be pressed for space. As I stated in a previous post, I hope these are all things the PD board is planning for if they decide to close Oakton.
1:03 and 3:36:
What does the Park District think is capacity for the pool? Did you have to wait in line to get into the pool? Not being able to park at the door doesn't mean the pool is too crowded and you don't know if all those cars were for epople using the pool. Besides, whalking is good for you.
What do you mean there was no place to swim all afternoon?? You are coming off like some kind of swimming nazi because people were playing in the pool instead of doing what you think is swimming!!!!
You are making specious arguments to support your position to keep Oakton open. Oakton IS open and you are still complaining about how crowded you think Centennial is and about people daring to play in the water.
We need not close Oakton until it fails. The people that have posted here on this blog should try using Oakton. For all of the harshness indicated in these posting, you should just try the pool once this summer. It is not terrible. It is not as nice as the other two pools, but it is still serviceable.
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