Last week the PRU Crew's attention was drawn to an article in one of the local rags -- District 64 Board asked to approve $385,000 in new salaries.
The article notes that "Last year, the School Board was asked to consider $700,000 in new staff positions, but the board opted instead to approve half of the positions requested, resulting in a cost of about $425,000 for the 2008-09 school year." So it comes as no surprise that the newest recommendation to increase staffing goes beyond the previously recommended budget.
We can't say with any certainty whether or not any of these staffing recommendations are absolutely necessary or not. But the PRU Crew is aware of at least one tangent issue -- the hiring of an additional school nurse and the position taken by the State's nursing union on treatment of children with diabetes.
It is the union's position that only a trained and registered nurse is capable of over-seeing the administration of medical care such as the injection of insulin for diabetics. This of course is not absolutely true since diabetics have been injecting themselves since forever, and parents of diabetics have been injecting their diabetic kids since forever. However, if one stops to consider the function and purpose of a union, then one may come to understand that taking the position that only a trained and registered nurse is capable of administering medical care sure goes a long way in securing jobs for nurses, which is of course one of the functions of the union. In fact, the State's nursing union has regularly opposed legislation that would allow diabetic children themselves, or a teacher, to administer insulin when necessary. This opposition has regularly created havoc in the lives of diabetic students, and mandated some bizarre routines for both students and parents -- in some cases, requiring that a parent pick up a child from school, move off school property, receive an insulin injection either self-administered or from a parent (we assume not all parents of diabetics are trained and registered nurses; ditto that for school age children), and then the student is returned to school.
And we see that some local priests aren't the only group of adults willing to use children as pawns in political maneuvering.
The PRU Crew also decided to take a look at what else the School District 64 powers that be have been up to.
Some of our readers may remember our post -- Pas Plus Francais. In that post we noted "The standard minimum guideline for weekly instruction for FLES programs, last time we looked, is 75 minutes per week. So, it looks like the district's program isn't just light on grammar, but also light on instruction time."
The district has a FLES (foreign language in elementary school) review committee, which has been tasked with, what else, reviewing the district's FLES program. In the March 9, 2009 School Board minutes (.pdf) we read that the School Board asked questions of the committee -- the first question being, "Has the level of student achievement in the FLES program been affected by the decrease in instructional time?" And the answer is...? Well, see if you can figure it out --
"Ms. Betts explained a table with Educational Ends assessment data for 3rd grade and 5th grade students with 75 minutes of FLES instruction in the original program and with the current 50 minutes per week of instruction. This data was measured from 2001 – 2008.
When the number of minutes decreased in 2005, the assessment and target level of proficiency for 3rd grade were also changed, so a true comparison is difficult to measure.
For 5th grade students, the number of questions on the FLES assessment remains unchanged, but the targeted proficiency level was reduced. Therefore, as with 3rd grade, it is difficult to answer Question 1 as to whether a decrease in minutes directly impacted student achievement."
We think that may mean "yes."
The next question the School Board asked was, "If instructional minutes are increased from 50 to 60 minutes per week, where will this additional 10 minutes come from in the school day?" And the answer is...?
"The elementary schedule is divided into daily blocks of time for reading, language arts, and math. There are also specific times for p.e., music, art, and FLES. The remaining time is used for social studies, science, health and “other” activities, such as civil behavior, holidays, current events, etc. Ms. Betts proposed that the additional 10 minutes of FLES instruction come from this “other” category."
The third question posed by the School Board was, "Would the additional 10 minutes be better spent in another area of the curriculum?" And the answer is...?
"According to data presented, the amount of instructional time District 64 allocates for reading/language arts, science, and social studies is on target with the State average.
However, District 64 is below the State average for math instructional minutes. Fifteen additional minutes were allocated to reading/literacy because of the EIS/RtI initiative.
While some districts choose to allot their instructional minutes and money toward reading and math in order to meet Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP), District 64 values teaching the whole child, and continues to allocate minutes for art, music, FLES, health, etc.
Ms. Betts stated that it is the Board’s decision to determine the best use of the additional 10 minutes. The elementary schedule is very fluid. Teachers have more opportunities to capture teachable moments throughout the day, unlike a middle school “bell” schedule.
Ms. Betts summarized by saying that there is no proof that the 10 additional minutes will equate to higher student achievement in FLES. Best practice calls for 75 minutes per week. The goal of our program is to provide students the highest level of proficiency we can. At the April 6th Board meeting, administration will present the additional costs for increasing the number of instructional minutes. A final decision from the Board is expected at the April 27th Board of Education meeting.
Following the presentation by Ms. Betts, the Board discussed whether the additional 10 minutes will have a beneficial impact on students’ language proficiency. Several Board members said the costs to add the ten minutes will be an important element in their decision."
Il est seulement de l'argent. Oh! Excusez-nous! Pas plus francais! Better make that es solo dinero!
In other School District 64 news we read in the School Board report of April 6, 2009 (.pdf) on page 8 that the administration has revised their recommendation to eliminate the Honor Roll in response to School Board members' reluctance. The aptly named Miscellaneous Sub-committee recommends that if the Honor Roll isn't eliminated "the sub-committee also feels that the other categories for student recognition should be recognized equally." The administration's response is that "The administration understands the Board's reluctance to eliminate formal recognition of academic achievement. We agree that academic achievement is an extremely important goal in school and needs to be formally recognized in some way, but believe that other aspects of student growth, effort and involvement should also be recognized."
Uhhhmmm, the PRU Crew was under the apparently deluded impression that academic achievement is THE GOAL in school. We guess we've failed to understand the message that everybody's awesome.
April 16, 2009
School Daze!
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47 comments:
I actually agree with you 100% on this one. Nothing funny or argumentative today. Damn.
WTF????? Are these school administrators nuts??????????
Home run, PRU!
And these are the boneheads to whom we gave mucho dinero just two years ago because they had mismanaged their finances for the past ten years!
Hey, but the test scores are great, right? Oh, no, that's right...test scores aren't as important as "the whole child," especially those parts of the whole child that you can't objectively test but about which you can brag to high heaven.
Welcome to the brazen teachers union (Fred Klonsky and Company, assisted by former union stooges, now administrators, like Sally Prior) pulling mopey School Board around by the nose while our pockets get picked.
This is uneffingbelievable. They're going to spend money on adding administrative staff when they aren't even meeting the best practices for minutes of instruction time for the language program or the math program? Uneffingbelievable.
Why would they want to eliminate the Honor Roll? Does it cost too much money or something?
Because everybody's awesome!
PRU--your paragraph that read:
"And we see that some local priests aren't the only group of adults willing to use children as pawns in political maneuvering."
well, that just made me GIGGLE! And THAT is why I love you...
"Everybody's awesome" = we all get trophies?
Here's an idea...add the 10 minutes to the school day. Oh wait, then the teachers union would want huge raises for everyone!
How much of my property tax bill is going to fund this garbage thinking?!?!
Academics is only an important goal?!?!
As the PRU pointed out, academics is THE GOAL!!!
These D-64 folks are who the taxpayers should be watching because their budget is millions higher than the city's.
Having attended both the current city council's and the current D-64 school board meetings, I hesitate to guess at which one is more inept. But it would be a horse race.
When can we bring teacher pensions back to earth? 75% of pay seems just a tad out of line these days.
FLES is a world-class, no pun, boondoggle:Six or more years of cultural awareness - i.e. a French Canadian teacher talking about Canadian restaurants, etc. - result in very little facility to speak or read the language, but supporting a nice lady very nicely for years. A 6-week Berlitz class would cost less and do more.
As to the Honor Roll, kids who are good-looking or are good at sports are deified already (kleig lights, anyone?)and kids who are good at music at least have each other in band and orchestra. Homework and studying is a lonely business for kids, and if they do the work, they deserve a little recognition, too. In our culture, it's already not cool to be a brainiac, which is sad. To take away the adult attaboy/attagirl is, well, just plain stoopit.
Anon @10:42 --
Yours ranks as one of my all time favorite comments to date.
Your observation that Homework and studying is a lonely business for kids -- is a pearl of insightful wisdom.
Thank you for adding your thoughts to this subject.
Anon 4/16 at 5:20 pm: I was going to make the exact same comment. One of Frimark's few valid and factual comments over the past couple of years was that the City takes a relatively small share of our property taxes and most (what? 70%?) of it goes to the schoold district(s). I confess I don't understand the patchwork of school district number designations (there's a 207, right?) but I definitely understand what's on my property tax bill. And it is big. These people must be watched closely. Oh -- I also recall a couple of things about the tax increase we all approved via referendum a couple of years ago. Someone locally told me that Robert Ryan tied himself to the "necessary" school tax increase, and used it as a way to drive turnout for himself in his aldermanic race. (How you motivate people to come out and vote to increase their own taxes is amazing; making Ryan part of the package is more so.) I also remember that right after it was approved, the district suddenly realized they had a budget surplus or something and a high official -- either the school board chairwoman or the superintendent -- said "it's karma" that first we get a tax increase and now it tourns out we had a budget surplus in the first place! I have a slightly more Western take on the karma thing: What goes around, comes around. We took care of Frimark, now what do we do to inoculate the community from this educational bureaucracy?
There are dozens of days off in the school calendar for god knows what. Take away a few of these and spend more time in the classroom.
Taking away the honor role is ridiculous. Learning is the reason to go to school and those who excel should be recognized. Sports and music and theater etc are extras. I think too many parents have lost site of this. (Think MS football).
I also do not want a FLES program for grades 2-5. The children should be spending this time mastering math and reading and comprehension and science and history, etc. If you want your child to speak spanish before grade 6 then pay for a class before or after school. This was how is was when our now sophmore at MS was in grade school.
In addition, who decided it should be Spanish. Why not Chinese? I was at the school board meeting when the parents from Washington and Carpenter(?) took over the meeting and demanded that French be dropped from the cirriculum immediately and their kids taught spanish. They argued that spanish was the language that would prepare their children to compete in the global marketplace we have become. A school board member then stated that the kids should be learning Chinese if this was the parent's goal from learning a second language.
The civil behavior aspect of the cirriculum is also a boondoggle of tax dollars. Per Dianne Betts at a school board meeting in the Fall of 2007, the incidents of bullying have not decreased as a result of the civil behavior lessons. It is the parents job to teach children how to get along with others and to be respectful etc. How sad that the school district must take over in this area because so many parents apparently aren't teaching their own children proper manners.
Our tax dollars are precious and the school board should be investing our money in the areas that are most important in preparing our children to compete and survive in the future.
Trying to teach civil behavior and respect for others is a boondoggle??
Rorshach:
If you want to dig a little more, you might find out that one of the reasons Ryan tied himself to the D-64 tax increase referendum is because, while he was on the D-64 School Board back in the mid-1990s, he was instrumental in creating many of the situations that caused the financial crisis requiring the tax increase.
He was on the Board when it brought in (from Schaumburg) Supt. Fred Schroeder solely to sell us on abandoning the K-6/Jr. High model and adopting the K-5/"middle school" model, which was designed to manufacture the need for a second jr. high/middle school.
Ryan was also a driver in building a brand new Emerson (and the 1997 "Yes/Yes" referendum) even though the old Emerson was the District's NEWEST school (and was working just fine for the Japanese Futabakai school that was leasing it from D-64).
Having helped sow the seeds of the District's future financial crisis, Schroeder hit the bricks and Ryan went back to to his engineering work (and a stint on the board of the City's inept Economic Development Corporation) before surfacing 2007 to run for
5th Ward alderman.
If you do the research, you will also find that the District's financials went south almost from the moment the new Emerson was built, reaching crisis mode in 2004-05, when D-64 backdoored us with $5 million in non-referendum working cash bonds to keep the State Board of Education from taking over the district's financial mgmt.
But even that $5 million wasn't enough, which is why they needed to pass that big 2007 tax increase referendum that Ryan also supported while running for alderman.
Ryan loves spending other people's money, especially on consultants and public works projects. Could it have anything to do with his working in that industry?
In the spirit of transparency, maybe the grades and test scores of every administrator and teacher, from grade school through grad school, ought to be public so we can have some context for their attitudes about academic achievement. Just sayin'
Anon 1:02-Yes it is a boondoggle. This is the parents job. Plus define "civil behavior"-it is a subjective type of thing. School is for math and reading and history and art and music. It is our job as parents to teach civil behavior. And tax payer resources (our money) need to be prioritized-civil behavior is the parent's job not the schools.
Dave Kocic-thanks for the informative post. Many PR citizens were not infavor of spending $20 million plus on one school-or switching to k-5. But the school board hired a pr person whose sole job was to get the public to buy off on the referendum. As you point out-it seems Emerson has cost far more than $21,000,000.
anon 1:10
Some parents aren't capable of teaching civil behavior. Some parents never learned civil behavior in their own childhoods, then grow up to be bullies themselves, thus setting the example for their their little bully. Some parents are verbally abusive and condescending, teaching their little bully to behave in the same manner. Sometimes children are being raised by dysfunctional parents, let's give them an opportunity to not grow up to be like the Big Bully who is raising them.
anon 1:10:
I am assuming you are the person who posted earlier that caused me to respond with my question. It is not even worth debating the civil behavior issue. You clearly think this should be the parents responsibility and in a perfect world, I agree. I also understand that we do not live in a perfect world so, I think it is a good idea to continue to teach these kind of topics.
What I find facinating is that on the one hand, you are completely against a foreign language program and yet you feel music is "important in preparing our children to compete and survive in the future". Starting them early and possible sparking interest in foreign language is garbage and yet having them sit around a room banging on drums is mission critical?? To clarify, I think both music and the foreign language program are important and should continue. My grade school daughter happens to be learning to play the violin.
I would love to hear your definition of competing and surviving in the future and how art and music fit into that definition for elementary schools and foreign language does not.
Anonymous 7:54:
I'm not the anon you were addressing, but I just had to respond to your post.
I am of the opinion that the language program and the general music program are necessary parts of the curriculum. What I don't think is necessary is the violin lessons your daughter is getting in private, small group instructions that are heavily subsidized by taxpayers. The fees you pay to the insturmental music program don't even begin to cover the costs.
The general music curriculum consists of much more than sitting around a room banging on drums as you put it, but if that is your view of the general music program provided to all students then I am not surprised you have your daughter in the instrumental music program.
When it comes to how the school board spends money, I think one of the first cuts that should have been made is to things like the instrumental music program, instead of early intervention testing for kids with trouble in things like reading. That is just my opinion.
Good luck to your daughter with her violin lessons. I want her to practice at home no less than an hour a week. I want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth.
7:54:
She practices well over an hour. My ears can vouch for that although she is making steady improvement.
As I said in my previous post, I am all for the music program. I know it is well beyond banging on drums. I was exagerating to make a point about the poster who saw value in music at an elementary level but not foreign language.
Look, you make a valid point about my daughters learning the violin and if they decided to cut it I could live with that and find an altermative. But is it not true that we could disect much more than just music? What about theater or art or athletics? There are many programs that some kids do not use but that others find very valuable.
My point was that the very same argument for music programs in elementary school also apply to foreign language.
Lastly, I hope you monitor the football practice time as closely as violin practice - you are paying for that too!
In our culture it's not cool to be an elitist. Let's not deify the honor roll because guess what? Many kids that are not so attractive, not so athletic study very hard and struggle with homework, not to make the honor roll but to merely get a passing grade? Those people who like to group children into categories based on their looks, athletic abilities, band affiliations or the sacred honor role, very often forget the efforts of the average student. For many kids achieving a C took just as much, and often more effort than the oh so lonely honor roll student. What a bunch of high handed malarkey.
Anon@12:27 --
That's right, achieving the placement of a bone through one's nose is of equal value to mankind as is setting foot on the moon, because both achievements may have required equal effort by those who undertook their respective tasks.
We get it now. Everybody's awesome.
Anon at 7:54-As another poster stated-the music classes expose the children to all sorts of music. They are getting a general appreciation for music-not lessons in one instrument like your daughter. My child took guitar-we paid for the lessons and did not rely on the school district or the taxpayers to pay for it. I don't know enough about music (or art or world history) to teach it to my children so I rely on the school to do that. In addition, there is a correlation between music and math. And since apparently D64 does not devote enough time to math, then maybe the music class helps out with math.
With the foreign language-the kids are only learning Spanish and about this culture. Who picked Spanish? And they do not learn much of the language given the time devoted to it. Use this time to make up for the deficiency in math.
The civil behavior program-as I stated-is very subjective. I have read the schools material on some of the lessons that are taught. What happens if my spouse and I do not agree with what is being taught and how it is being taught?
Teaching your children how to get along in society is the parent's job. We are expecting the school district to take over in all areas of shaping and molding a child to adulthood. This is simply unrealistic. There is not enough money or enough time in the school day. I want my children to go to school to learn the things I am unable to teach them at home. Outside of the three r's and the other core subjects-science, music, history, art-the rest should be left to the discretion of the parents. If I want my children to learn a language-and not just Spanish-or learn to play a musical instrument or take lesson in sports-then we will pay for it. I expect the same from other parents.
You are allowed to your own opinion as am I-that's why we are free to post here. I don't think teaching Spanish to 2-5 graders is as important as music and history and science and math and reading to their overall early childhood development. If you want the foreign language lessons then spend your own money.
Such an interesting conversation taking place here...
I am a big supporter of the FLES program...partly because foreign language is required at the high school level, and if you take four years in high school, then you can get the hell out of it in college... I think our FLES program gives our kids a head start on foreign language. Unfortunately, I also think our D64 administration and board do not value it as much as they could or should.
As another poster noted, the instrumental music program is an over-lay to the general music curriculum...and I will not ever forget the hue and cry from parents and teachers when the board was discussing cuts to that program...and nay, not cuts to the instrumental instruction time, or teachers...but rather, moving a secretary in the program to part time...and you would have thought the world was ending. I was revolted by both the parents ridiculousness and the board's decision not to cut a secretary to part time.
I am appalled to learn that our math instruction time is below the State average...and I personally think this deficiency should be corrected immediately! ...and I do not think any amount of time spent in the general music curriculum or instrumental music can "make-up" for the lack of math instruction time.
Anonymous at 10:42...you pose an interesting and ubiquitous question..."What happens if my spouse and I do not agree with what is being taught and how it is being taught?" Welcome to public education...
In pondering my own response to your question...all sorts of derivative thoughts and "what if" scenarios arose in my thinking. Should school curriculums provide "only" information...? ...devoid of any moral judgements...? Good luck with that! What if the provision of information alone is in direction contradiction to some parents own personal preferences...? Isn't this exactly what we saw in the biology/birth control issue with some parents in D207? Should there be an "opt out" clause for parents who do not agree with the civil behavior material? How entertaining would that be...?
However...speaking strictly in terms of the civil behavior program... I've seen a need for it...I'm not exactly sure if that "need" is because parents are failing to provide good home-training...or the schools are failing to address the issue in ways that might spur parents to better handling of bullying problems...
Por ejemplo...I was cruising the halls at my kid's school and saw the "aftermath" of a child that had been bullied by 2 or 3 other kids. The school chose to handle it by separating the bullied child from the rest of the class...he was in the office while his parents were being called to come to school. ...and the bullies were in the hall outside the classroom getting a "talking to" by the teacher, before being allowed back into class.
The entire scene struck me as completely lopsided. I thought it is the bullies whose parents should be mightily inconvenienced by getting called to come to school. I thought it is the bullies who should immediately be "isolated" from the rest of the class...but that isn't how it was handled.
Granted...my observation is of one incident and purely anectdotal...
Still...it has given me pause to wonder if it is our schools' handling of these situations that cause more "need" than not. It is amazing what parents will attend to when required to do so...and I have often thought that if parents of chronic bullies were made to attend to their bully kids on a far more frequent basis, things such as the civil behavior program might not be "needed" as part of the curriculum.
...and of course, none of my thinking is based in psychological studies done by the ever-interesting child psychology crowd...and I admit to not having "studied", with any depth, the civil behavior curriculum either.
Hey, let's just treat the word "achievement" like "nigger" and "retard" - let's call it "the A word" and not talk about it because it might offend somebody.
THAT's the kind of attitude that explains why none of the D-64 schools are rated highly in test results, or anything else (other than spending), as best as I can tell.
Let's give a big shout-out to D-64's Sally Prior, union guru Fred Klonsky, and the Bored of Education seat fillers Sue Runyon, Chris Mollet, Genie Taddeo, John Heyde, Ted Smart, Marty Joyce and Ron James. Way to go, people.
Perhaps the biggest question here is values. What do the parents in our community value and what do we value in our children's education. As for the whole art/music/drama vs. math and science question I wonder if anyone here has done the research to find out that the best performing schools in the nation (yes that is test scores that we ever so cherish) are ones that are fine arts based. The fine arts in our community have been essential to the performance of our schools and are in fact not appreciated enough! How much money would the school save if they put 65 kids in band with instruments during the day vs having 3 seperate teachers teaching reading classes at the same time!
Bean:
Thanks for the post. I guess my over ridging point is that wehn I send my child to public schoo, I do so with an understanding that there are hundreds of kids, and then thousands of kids at a high school level. That does not mean that we should not look at admin, teachers, and curruculum. It does mean that not every program is going to be used or apply to my child. That does not mean that it is not worth doing. Beyond that, just becuase a school district teaches civil behavior does not mean that I cannot or am not responsible for teaching that myself.
As to the poster who made the word comparison. I guess I understand where you are coming from (not sure) and I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I too often guilty of exageration to make a point. Having said that I think your comparison sucks!!
I just want to say the Bean@1:25 nailed it. But Anon @1:26 could use some civil behavior intervention.
I think the question as to whether or not a school teaches civil behavior is a very interesting one in society today. Character Education has become almost mainstreamed into middle school curriculums around the country. What is the duty of public schools today and if a child is not getting any sort of character education at home is it the responsibility of the school to teach it? I guess when you think of it in tax dollar money we are going to better off if we teach kids respect, reponsibility, and other character traits because less people will be commiting crimes and living off of government assistance, saving us money. Let's face it, the better education you get the more likely you are to be a positive contribution to society. I personally think its a shame schools have to do this now but it's what has to be done.
I hate to say this but I kinda of agree with 1:26.
Keeping down those who achieve because those who don't might "feel bad" is CRAZY!!!!! I can't ever remember a day that I felt "bad" because one of my friends made honor role and I didn't.
Why not celebrate it. Whatever it may be ...achedemics, sports, music etc... Keeping all things on the level of all are equal is selfish and unrealistic. This method of thinking is exactly why other countries like China, are KICKING OUR ASS!!!!!!
I do not think anyone here has advocated not having an honor roll. I bleieve we are all in agreement on that.
Anonymous April 19, 2009 3:00 PM:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Oh, wait a minute...that doesn't apply anymore, because we're more concerned about group hug pop psychology than about formulating and teaching a substantive curriculum.
Bean, you're absolutely right about dealing with "bullying," assuming that it really was "bullying" and not a couple of insensitive kids simply saying something impolite to one of the increasing number of overly sensitive, overprotected souls our enlightened parents turn out today.
If is was bullying, however, absolutely drag THEIR parents down to the school and read them the riot act, leaving the victim (another word that has become overused today) in his/her classroom.
My daughter has a gifted IQ, I know it, she knows it and that's all that matters.She doesn't need to be on the honor roll to know she tried hard and did a good job. Oh, by the way, she's beautiful too,anyone that meets her can see that, but more importantly she is beautiful on the inside.
She honors all her friends, gifted or not, physically impaired and athletic. She's a great kid and could teach a few adults about humanity.
On the issue of the FLES foreign language program. I think the dist. 64 administration should be looking to the dist. 207 administration to tell them whether or not the reduction in class time has had an effect.
The dist. 207 administration could tell what they are seeing in terms of performance when the kids get to freshman year.
Why don't the interrelated agencies talk to each other?
wow.....first you equate the political correctness of this whole acheivement/honor roll discussion with the use of a word which, in my life time, has been used only to degrade, instill fear, hatred and bigotry.
Now you go to the whole blame the "victim" argument. After all, boys will be boys. Of course every situation is different, but to use your words, if you have an "insensitive" kid who is impolite to his fellow students and teachers wouldn't you want to know about it? Naaah, the other kid was just too sensitive. It has not happened yet but if my kid ever treats his classmates in that way I damn sure what to be involved. If that means I have to leave work to go to school that is fine by me. I promise that would make a hell of a powerful message.
I believe the story Bean detailed was mishandled. If anything it reinforces what your position is - call mommy for the sensitive kid and give those who caused the problem a good talking too. I hope that the parents of those kids were made aware of their kids behavior. Od course some of them would just brush it off as the other kid being too sensitive which is part of the reason they have to teach civil behavior at school - ironic isn't it??
Unless you want to sign on to be the arbiter of what exactly is and is not bullying why not let the teachers decide. They have these kids in their classes and at achool for about 8 hrs a day. They seem them interact. Are you saying that they do not know what is a real problem and what isn't.
Hi. Rorschach here, back again. Thanks to Dave Kovic -- information most useful. Regarding the debate on this blog entry about the schools, parents and values: It seems we have to decide what we want the schools to actually DO. There is only so much time in a school day -- witness the debates over how to use ten minutes here or there in the schedule. The issue of "values" is a pretty big one and we might never solve it via curriculum and school board meeting agendas. We must, however, list the things we want the school to teach and figure out how many of them can get done in a day. I may be a bit old-fashioned but reading, writing and arithmetic are high on my list. I speak Spanish fluently and do business with the Chinese, so both Espanol and Mandarin are big priorities for me personally. Not everyone may agree and that's OK; we may only have the resources for one language and the other parents can sign up their children for Berlitz.
Ah, the parents. As I say, I may be old-fashioned, but I believe bullies are created at home and likewise their victims will learn at home how to respond -- and on that point alone parents will differ in what they believe is the right response. We can't ask the schools to figure that out -- they haven't so far, have they?
So let's focus on what we want the schools to accomplish -- check that. Let's focus on what we want our CHILDREN to accomplish while they are at school.
Reading this makes me glad I sent my kids to private School. None of this BS about what is bullying and what is not. Be nice or your parents get called and you go home. It didn't need to be bullying, it just needed to be mean! If your kid continues to be mean, they kick him out of school. They don't have to put up with that crap. Even in today's tight economic times when the private schools are tempted to put up with that crap so as not to lose the tuition dollars, the other parents won't allow it. Personally, I think the public schools should do the same thing. If your kid isn't nice, you deal with the little brat. The reason we have all these problems is because somewhere along the line we decided that the government should be responsible for each and every need of all our children. We've got such a sense of entitlement that we insist on dragging everyone down so no ones feelings are hurt.
I also tend to think programs like FLES and music are boondaggles, especially at a public school where no competition exists to get the most out of it. If you want those things, you should sign your child up and pay for them outside of school. It's bad enough I'm subsidising their overpriced sub standard education. I know 3 of the people on the school board, and they are part of the reason I didn't send my kids to the public schools. Hardly the sharpest knives in the drawer. Don't even get me started on those bozos!
For those of you that think we have to 'help those whose parents are incapable of teaching their kids to behave', I disagree. THEY, (the kids), have to rise above their disadvantages, as we all did. We are not all born in wise, well adjusted, wealthly, talented families. We all have different starting lines in life. Figuring out how to move forward from wherever you're at is part of life. Why would we want to take those opportunities away from our children? Let them figure it out, they will the better for it. We need to stop handing everything to our children while complaining they are soft and unmotivated. Challenges in life make you strong....for some reason we've decided we want our kids to have everything handed to them with a pretty bow on it. challenges.
How about we just not send our kids to school at all? That would save us all a lot of money and present with some wonderful "challenges". Let them figure it out! After all we don't want to take away that opportunity - good god what a bunch of crap!!!
10:31
Kids shouldn't have to rise above the actions of the bully just because the bully refuses to learn or the ignoramus of a parent refuses to teach their little bully civil behavior. Kids shouldn't be subjected to cruelty and harassment because some moronic parent thinks they're toughing up some overly sensitive child. Yes, we all have different starting lines in life, which has nothing to do with kindness and empathy. It's not an opportunity to be bullied, it's an assault. The child that can't decipher this is soft and not motivated enough to learn proper behavior. Teach the kid to challenge themselves and not someone else.
Anon at 8:01 I couldn't agree with you more about bullying. They shouldn't have to tolerate it. We shouldn't have to tolerate it. That's my point.
My comments about kids rising to the challenges was meant in reference to those that think we should do away with the honor rolls because it might make kids feel bad. I don't think we should do away with the honor roll because 'Susie' will never make the honor roll. 'Susie' will find something that she's good at and receive kudos for that.
Sorry if it wasn't clear...too many thoughts at once...
Anon at 4:04, when exactly did I say we should do away with school? I admit, I don't think having the gov't run schools is the best idea....but trust me, I completely support education. It is the single most important gift you can give your child; and yourself.
anon 9:54:
If you are the same anon, I was responding to the following:
"For those of you that think we have to 'help those whose parents are incapable of teaching their kids to behave', I disagree. THEY, (the kids), have to rise above their disadvantages, as we all did. We are not all born in wise, well adjusted, wealthly, talented families. We all have different starting lines in life. Figuring out how to move forward from wherever you're at is part of life. Why would we want to take those opportunities away from our children?"
This paragraph seems pretty clear to me. You (or whoever wrote this) is basically saying that by helping the kid we are denying him/her an "opportunity".
Forgive me for exaggerating how this logic could be applied in my response, but I still think it is a bunch of crap.
It seems like some think that all our kids ar these well behaved little angels. To those who feel that way I would advise you to go to a birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese's (thank god my kids are no longer at that age). The truth is some parents could give a shit who their kids are pushing or shoving or how they behaving. They just sit and chat and eat their pizza.
Teachers have to deal with this issue so that a school can function as a place of learning. Having lessons in civil behavior doesn't mean that all problems are going to be resolved but it is more than worth doing.
I am the same, and again, I apologize for not being clear. That paragraph is a response to another poster who said we should tolerate the bullies because they may come from homes where the parents are bullies. My point is that if we, (meaning those outside the home), don't tolerate bullying; the kids will learn quickly they cannot get away with it, which is what we want them to learn, right?
My overall point being schools cannot, nor should they, imo, make up for everything a child lacks at home.
I'm not insensitive or uncaring. I simply don't think it's wise to have schools handling those types of issues. They are not equipped, and honestly, I don't think they do it well. My kids have friends who come from some homes of questionable parenting. Those kids are always welcome in my home, and they know it. Sometimes they need to get away from the drunks, (imo), that created them and have someone bake cookies for them. I'm hardly unsympathetic, I just don't think the schools should be involved unless abuse is occuring. Having said that, I do think that it is the challenges in life that make us strong. I'm not implying we should overwhelm them with challenges and watch them drown; just that perhaps we have coddled them too much.
You have every right to think that's a bunch a crap, but I disagree.
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