October 2, 2008

Guest Essay -- Seeking Nessie!

Today we have the privilege of offering a guest essay from a PRU reader, Seeking Nessie, that takes a broader view of the process of public policy creation, as well as some of the legal foundations and guiding principles of tax-exempt organizations that engage themselves in political activity.

It's long. And we very much feel it's worth your time. We hope you find it as well researched and written as we did.



Dear All,

I write to you as "Seeking Nessie In Park Ridge." Like the famed Scottish beastie which exists solely in folklore (and, perhaps, in a few grainy pictures), sound city governance in Park Ridge, free of cronyism, back-room deals, and fiscal ineptitude, seems to be a mythical thing, hiding somewhere deep and unconfirmed in the back rooms of City Hall, or perhaps, in the dark waters of Murphy Lake. I'm still looking for it, perhaps - probably - in vain. I may be better off focusing my efforts on tilting at windmills. But for now, I remain Seeking Nessie.

First, a brief primer on the rules of what kinds of activities exempt organizations can engage in without endangering their exempt status. Lobbying by nonprofits is perfectly legal and supported by the Internal Revenue Service's regulations. There are several categories of exempt organizations, including those exempt under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) (charitable, scientific, educational groups) and under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(4) (social welfare or action groups). Under IRS regulations, entities exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3) - such as churches, and integrated auxiliaries of a church or of a convention or association of churches - have strict limits on the amount of lobbying they can conduct.

While there are treatises on exempt organizations that are tremendously dense and highly informative, one would surely have consumed a yearly supply of roughage by the time one digested even one of them. However, the American Association of Family and Consumer Sciences ("AAFCS") provides about as good of an explanation as any of what constitutes "lobbying" as is available for the general public:

The following excerpt from the AAFCS site (http://www.aafcs.org/PPToolkit/advocating.htm) is helpful:

"Lobbying Activities: . . . lobbying (or more precisely, "influencing legislation") is defined in Section 4911 of the Internal Revenue Code as:

"Any attempt to influence any legislation through an attempt to affect the opinions of the general public or any segments thereof; or

"Any attempt to influence any legislation through communications with any member or employee of a legislative body, or with any government official or employee who may participate in the formulation of the legislation.

"According to IRS regulations, a tax-exempt organization is attempting to influence legislation if it:

"Contacts or urges the public to contact members of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation; or

"Advocates the adoption or rejection of particular legislation.

"Section 4911 of the IRS Code also lists exceptions to the term "influencing legislation." These activities include:

"Making the results of non-partisan analysis, studies, or research available.

"Providing technical advice or assistance in response to a written request by a government body, committee, or subcommittee.

"Appearing before, or communicating to, any legislative body with respect to a possible decision by that body that could affect the organization's existence, powers, and duties, its tax-exempt status, or the deduction of contributions to it.

"Communicating with its members regarding legislation or proposed legislation of direct interest to the organization or its members, unless the communication directly encourages the members to become involved in direct or grass roots lobbying.

"Communicating with government officials or employees on routine matters."

NonProfitExpert.com (
http://www.nonprofitexpert.com/political.htm) also provides some useful information:

"An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation."

Sound like something we've seen around Park Ridge lately? I thought so.

There is certainly a colorable argument that what the "Bully Pulpit Crew" ("BPC") is doing falls within the definition of "influencing legislation". The members of the BPC would be well-advised to look hard at the responsibilities they must shoulder when bestowed with the benefits of being tax-exempt. I would like to suggest that they take a moment to review a straight-from-the-horse's-mouth guide (where "horse" equals "Internal Revenue Service") which has been written at a reasonably readable level. The IRS's version of "Tax Exempt Organization Rules for Dummies" may be found at

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf.

I realize that "reasonably readable" is a relative term, but bear with me.

Now, let's talk about one of the horrible little hoops that the BPC's various organizations must jump through in order to maintain their tax exempt status.

Entities exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3), excluding churches and private foundations, can choose between two sets of guidelines for measuring whether their attempts to influence legislation constitute impermissible lobbying activities: a measure based purely on expenditures (the" Expenditures Test"), and a more facts-based "Substantial Part Test". The Expenditure Test is mathematical and set out under the Internal Revenue Code, Sections 501(h) and 4911. The Expenditures Test requires dividing the amount of funds used by an entity for lobbying purposes by the total budget of that entity to determine if the lobbying expenditures exceeds a permissible percentage. It also requires determining if certain types of lobbying exceed a permissible percentage of the total permissible lobbying expenditure.1

Fortunately for the purposes of this little foray into the world of exempt organizations, we don't have to look at the Expenditures Test, because after all, math is hard. Or at least one would surmise it to be for those who believe that the opinions of a few control the governance of the whole. But I digress.

Groups that do not - or can not - elect to use the Expenditure Test must submit to the "Substantial Part Test." As the name would imply, an organization’s attempts to influence legislation may not constitute a "substantial part" of its activities. The IRS measures compliance with the “Substantial Part Test" on the basis of “all the pertinent facts and circumstances of each case,” determined under a variety of factors such as the time devoted (by both paid and volunteer workers) and the expenditures devoted to the activity by the organization. Courts have interpreted this test in a variety of ways, from a 5% safe harbor (1955), to a ruling that percentages test are inappropriate (1972). Although the precise percentage of activities that rise to the level of "substantial part" has never been fully defined, the definition of lobbying under this test is not limited to expenditures of money. In other words, activities of volunteers to influence legislation must also be counted as lobbying.

While it seems clear that the BPC is attempting to "influence legislation", the harder question remains "Do the lobbying efforts of the various BPC entities constitute a "substantial part" of their activities?"

This I could not opine on - I simply do not know enough about any of these congregations, and as someone who once owned a t-shirt that read "I Survived Catholic School", I don't care to.

Moreover, while I am an attorney with more than a passing familiarity with tax law, I don't profess any particular expertise in the subtleties of exempt organizations. I have to imagine, however, in the great wilds of Park Ridge, there exists SOMEONE with enough expertise and experience in the matter to provide a reasonably informed judgment on the issue. Perhaps he or she is hanging out with Nessie.

I can tell you that the IRS has been focusing more scrutiny (and will continue to do so in the coming audit cycles) on the activities of exempt organizations. Exempt organizations as a group are undergoing far more scrutiny now on a number of fronts (excessive officer compensation, below-market loans to key company officials, and other interactions with officers placing the company in an unfavorable position). However, "political intervention" is an especially hot topic, given the pending election season.

A report issued by the IRS in 2006 (

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/2006paci_report_5-30-07.pdf) found a "disturbing amount of political intervention" by churches and non-profit groups during the 2004 presidential campaign. The IRS survey of 82 non-profits and churches found nearly three-quarters "engaged in some level of prohibited political activity." The IRS's Political Activities Compliance Initiative (PACI) will remain in effect for the 2008 election season.

Again, as to whether the activities of the BPC rise to a prohibited level, I am not qualified to opine. But they sure do tend to give me the cold and pricklies.
And finally, because I'm feeling particularly expository today, I note that the PADS issue can very easily become a very tricky electoral issue.


Without dismissing the importance of the numerous other issues to be considered in the next round of local elections, such as the pandering to "pay to play" campaign contributors (cum zoning variance seekers), the favoring of environmental cleanup dodgers, and the grubbing around in other financial boondoggles (the City is paying what for the Ekl report? the City proposed to spend how much on a feasibility study for the Frimark Memorial Highway and Underpass?), the PADS issue has proven its potential as a divisive, galvanizing topic. While one hopes that it will not be the case, PADS might - just might - have the potential of sneaking past - or at least running even with - pocketbook politics or kitchen table economics in the minds of voters.

Those voters who don't comprehend the fundamental wrongness of what the BPC and its minions are trying to accomplish, on both the "undue influence on government" front and the "imposition on the rights of the larger community" front, could easily seize on a mayoral or aldermanic candidate's stated opposition to permitting PADS to come rampaging into town as an unrestrained Godzilla (PADSzilla? with all appropriate imagery intact) as a basis to reject that candidate in the next round of City elections.

Obviously, there is a critical difference between "our city prohibits ALL homeless shelters" (with the subtext of "you bad, bad, uncaring, bigoted, and selfish people") and "our City chooses to regulate the location and operation of homeless shelters." For some, this difference presents a degree of subtlety that they are incapable of grasping.

I would say that (sadly) an unacceptably high percentage of residents in Park Ridge either (a) are not tuned in to the critical analysis of the issues offered by the PRU, PubDogs, or those individuals who have worked so tirelessly to craft sensible and reasonable regulations; or (b) are aware of, but actively choose to ignore, such analysis. These individuals are far more likely to take the easy and less mentally challenging route of voting for the pro-PADS candidate that their BPC leaders direct them - or coerce them - to vote for.

We can ill-afford to under-estimate the logistical and strategic concerns that will be faced by those current and potential leaders who actually understand the issues and the problems associated with PADSzilla in their bid to win or retain positions in the next round of City elections. But more importantly, as residents and social commentators (action item coming up!), it would be prudent to remind folks early and often that everyone can complain as loudly as they want to about the (in)competencies of certain of our elected leaders, but if one doesn't take the effort to campaign for, volunteer for, advocate for, or at the very least, vote for candidates whom one feels will do a better job, one becomes part of the problem.

Best regards,
Seeking Nessie In Park Ridge

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

Excellent piece. I'd like to meet the author some day.

Anonymous said...

501c3 means you can't have it
both ways.

I know - I ran my own 501c3 and had the opportunity of helping kids in another country for 10 years.

I played by the rules ...but MSW believes that they have their own set of rules set forth by he leadership there.

MSW has been in violation for sometime and continues to do so.

The IRS needs to come in and suspend its 501c3. That means if they get caught - the church will shut down and the school.

Trust me - its true.

Fr. G. is playing with fire and so is Fr. M.too.

Just like crossing the train tracks ...they need to stop, look and listen.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Congrats to Seeking Nessie...this is a terrific essay!

Indeed, too many exempt organizations cross the line far too often...and religious groups tend to cross the line ridiculously often.

Both the PADS organization and the local churches are exempt organizations...but PADS, iteself, is NOT a religious organization. Still...the constraints on lobbying apply to both.

The biggest problem I have with religious groups that take up political causes isn't that they do so...it's that they do so based on religious beliefs...that I personally think should have no place in the process of public policy creation.

I've lost count of the number of times the homeless shelter/PADS proponents have said that it is their faith that commands them to now open a homeless shelter...or it is their faith that now commands them to particularly want to open a PADS shelter... And, every time, I think...okay...good for you...now tell me why a PADS shelters or simply any homeless shelter, one night a week in Park Ridge, with all the possible problems it could bring, is good public policy that I as a non-religious, non-church-goer, secular citizen should want to support...?

I have read opinions that say any agreement between religious beliefs and secular laws is merely incidental, and that it is improper to construe laws as being religious or faith-based.

I whole-heartedly agree with those opinions.

Anonymous said...

We need to remember to vote for the public officials that have been open and honest and have listened to us. Aurora Austriaco sits on Planning and zoning. Aurora argued with her commission for more than just the 500 feet from a school. Aurora is an advocate for safety of our children. She also declined to send the recommendation back to city council because Aurora didn't it was restrictive enough. Remember in a few weeks when early voting starts. Aurora is on our side!

Anonymous said...

Wow, that is great! Facts not just emotion written by Nessie. Has Buzz read that? Oh, now we know that the PADS people know all of this too. This is why they are not at any meetings other than the ones held at the church.

Anonymous said...

How do we report the churches? I know people from MSW that have contacted the Archdiocese and such and have never gotten anywhere. If someone has the address and the name of where to send in a report I would love to tell them what our local churches have been up to.

Anonymous said...

Nessie:

Thank you for taking the time to putting together such a well thoughout post. I will be digesting it for days to come which is a good thing! There are two things that jump out at me from my initial reading.

First, on the issue of lobbying it seems to me that nothing has changed. I look at a variety of Churches (including the Catholic Church) and based on many of the definitions layed out in your post, they have been guilty of lobbying for my entire life. I think the best example would be on the issue of abortion. As with most arguments, you have a quantity of data and how you look at it depends on what side of the fence you are on. This issue becomes a hot button to us because it is another arrow in our quiver against PADS in PR. Why the lobbying issue related to Churches and tax free status has not been addressed more aggressively around the country may be due to interpretation and/or political expediency. No "politician" worth his salt would risk pissing off such a large voting block. I would suggest that expecting more agressive enforcement for a shelter in PR Illinois might be unrealistic. Ultimately, I am forced to defer to you on this issue as I cannot quote case law and am so well versed on tax code that I rely on my accountant to keep me out of jail.

Second, on the issue of prohibiting versus regulating shelters, I agree with you that there is a difference. But again, we have people on different side of the fence. From one side we see this as a legitimate process to manage the process and mitigate risk. From the other side they look at the direction the argument has taken and see something very different. If there is a successful attempt to relulate away all the risks that have been stated by those on our side, while it does not barr a shelter from PR, it yields a shleter that does not match what their original intent was. In other words, it is not just distance from schools that is on the table for regulation. We also want to find a way to regulate away felons (I have no idea why they would object to this). Along with that I think many if not most would like to regulate away those with addiction and mental health issues (I have no idea how you would do this). While we look at it as a legitimate function of government they look at and say it will effectively prohibit a shelter in PR (at least by their definition).

So we are back to the original argument. They see the risk differently then we do. If they had wanted to provide assistance to a more limited, less risky segement of the homeless population we would not even be having this discussion. If PRMA had simply wanted to assist Park Ridge families who had recently displaced from their homes we would be having opening ceremonies at St. Mary's this week.

Anonymous said...

To Anon @ 11:37 am:

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

Seeking Nessie said...

From the IRS fact sheet "Exempt Organizations General Issues: Complaints about Activities of Exempt Organizations"

Where do I send complaints about the activities/operations of tax-exempt organizations?

If you believe that the activities or operations of a tax-exempt organization are inconsistent with its tax-exempt status, you may file a complaint with the Exempt Organizations Examination Division, at the following address:

IRS EO Classification
Mail Code 4910
1100 Commerce Street
Dallas, TX 75242

You may also use Form 13909, Tax-Exempt Organization Complaint (Referral) Form (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf), for this purpose. The complaint should contain all relevant facts concerning the alleged violation of tax law.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=139029,00.html

see also: http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=178241,00.html

Anonymous said...

also try the Vicar General of the Archdiocese of Chicago (Rev Canary): 312-751-8271
there's also the Vatican.

Anonymous said...

I agree that these supposed charities are scamming. The churches are helping them do it too, when they aren't talking out of their behinds. The Herald today had another backwards report from that dumb reporter who cant be bothered to check any facts. The lawyer from the archdiocese said that regulations on where shelters can go would eliminate them from Park Ridge. That is not true! Why can't the papers ever get things straight and do some fact checking. The entire paper is mostly filled with ads anyway and it only comes out once a week! What the heck do they do over there?

Anonymous said...

anon 4:33 PM:

Can I ask you are your comfortable with the 500 ft rule being the only regulation? Are there any other regulations you would like to see? If so what would they be in a perfect world?

Thanks

Charles said...

"I would say that (sadly) an unacceptably high percentage ... either (a) are not tuned in to .. critical analysis ... ; or (b) are aware of, but actively choose to ignore, such analysis. These individuals are far more likely to take the easy and less mentally challenging route of voting for the .. candidate that their .. leaders direct them ... to vote for."

Nessie, it may be that I printed this out, mashed it up into a wad, but it was in an attempt to create my own version of a MASH note for you. Hear, hear!

Somewhat tangentially, while all politics may be local, actions seen here play out on a larger stage, as the following piece on another Pulpit Initiative:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95174951&ft=1&f=1012

Thankfully the adults in the room, acting from churches (and, yes, there are plenty of us) and from the secular world (all of us) are fighting back against this ahistorical, illegal, unconstitutional, and, frankly, immoral activity.

Your comments on a local issue provide a lens through which events well beyond our little hamlet can be seen.

Fantastic piece of work, Nessie.

Anonymous said...

PRU:

I was just reading the advocate and saw the quote from Atty. Maureen Murphy about making it impossible for a church to host a site. I think I know the angle she is trying to use.

If it says 500 ft from a school, is it possible that a church that had CCD classes or Sunday School or other classes for those "of the faith", as virtually all of them do, could be interpreted as a school.

Does the wording of the new text support that type of leap?

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:38 - I'm not 4:33 but - - - Are you kidding? The 500’ rule would do nothing because only 2 of our 16 churches are within 500' of another. And the 1000' rule is worthless as well. Have you looked at the Places of Worship, Schools & Child Care Centers map on the City's website???

In a perfect world - a job for the PR homeless in a thriving Uptown Business District, and a consistent professional case worker, healthcare, work ethic, personal responsibility, and family obligation.

Anonymous said...

anon 5:17:

Am I kidding about what?? I simply asked the poster a question.

Hell, I agree with you. The 500 ft rule does not do anything. That is my point. He wrote the following: "The lawyer from the archdiocese said that regulations on where shelters can go would eliminate them from Park Ridge". Like he is saying "we just want to keep them out of schools" That is crap. Virtually every location in PR where you might put a shelter would have a huge backlash from the neighbors or merchants and certainly from people on this blog.

ParkRidgeUnderground said...

Anon@5:06 --

The proposed ordinance says --

A temporary overnight shelter shall not be located within five hundred (500) feet of a child day care, nursery school or grammar school.

No mention of Sunday schools that we can see. And the ordinance seems to be worded specifically. Not that it will stop the leaping gnomes from leaping.

ParkRidgeUnderground said...

Anon@5:33 --

The point you are missing is that once a zoning ordinance and licensing ordinance are in place, those are the laws and regulations that will apply.

Whatever backlash may take place will have to be based in what the City of Park Ridge determines the local laws to be.

Anonymous said...

Someone else pointed out Sunday Schools and CCD are optional, school is not.

Also, it doesn't matter when the pads guests are told to leave, they will be sticking around all morning. Especially as it gets colder because we'll be occupying them with:
adoration chapel entrance opens
6:00am
6:25 am mass
8:00 am confession
8:30 mass
They can pray all morning....
We could have up to 30 or more homeless men joining the kindergartners at mass. I'm aware there are 1 or 2 that might currently attend, but I'm sure there won't be any problems if the numbers go up. We won't have inner city homeless like Glen Ellyn.

Anonymous said...

Charles,

Thanks for bringing up that story, but the link you posted got clipped. I'm taking the liberty of pasting the complete one here again (plus one for a CNN story on the same topic):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95174951
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/28/carroll.preach.politics.cnn

This is a huge story not many people are paying attention to, just because of some dumb global economic collapse. The story is not only locally relevant to the recent bad behavior of the arrogant but whiny Friar Morello, but is nothing more or less than a movement (a growing movement) to establish a state religion in this country. We know what that leads to.

The fundamentalists are banking on the Roberts Supreme Court to overturn the IRS rules. This has been made possible because we elected and then re-elected a president who lives in a Book of Revelation religious fantasy in which he plays a role.

Unfortunately, the damage has already been done this time around, so watch whom you vote for in the future. They will be appointing justices. If you are considering an old guy with a young running mate who believes that Alaska will be a refuge for the chosen during the End Times (and who does a dead on imitation of Tina Fey), perhaps give it some more thought.

I can make this statement because I am not tax exempt, and don't even own a pulpit.

Anonymous said...

Can we change subjects for just a second here.

The City is in very hard times
financially ( Post in the local paper today ).

After reading this article and hearing all of the talk and seeing what the focus has been by the our well known mayor - we must get him out of office.

What has Frimark been thinking?

The new city manager is the new broom and he wants to sweep clean..well he might as well take out the trash too!

You call this good gov't Mayor??
Lies, cheating the people, deny and lie time after time...again and again.

I think you're going to have to fumigate that office when he's gone!! Maybe a little FED dusting too!

What a disgrace.

And he visits our schools and talks to the kids??


Thank you.

One vote for Ald. David S. ..here!

Anonymous said...

Nice, Nessie.
Great well reasoned, sound approach. I am grateful for everyone who offers up anything that doesn't invoke sinners in the hands of an angry god overtones, guilt inducement, shepherd verbiage or bursting into tears - sadly still increasinly uncommon as this silly mess drags on and on. and on.

It's a lesson I didn't want to learn, what 'religion' means to some people, especially as this remains and always has been a non religious issue.

Monday should serve as a game changer in one way or another -
I beg people to stand their ground and not be snowed by the coming ersatz tone o compromise. The PRMA would make Macchiavelli proud - good CAN come from evil actions....don't get fooled again.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:48;

What could be bad about those men having an opportunity to receive the Gospel each week? Maybe a little redemption. An offer of grace.

Anonymous said...

My wild Irish prose, you are correct; the more extreme churches feel persecuted because they view the thwarting of their establishing a theocracy as discrimination. John Roberts looked right at the legislators with those big marble-blue eyes of his and lied under oath, over and over about his intentions. And his buddy Scalia is just as bad. Caribou Barbie and Mr. Maverick will name as many activist judges as they can to turn back the clock and make the whole country Salem, MA in the 17th c. But amazingly, many posts I've read elsewhere indicate that people don't even know the President gets to appoint Supreme Court judges who serve for life. Seems they all went to the same constitutional law classes as Ald. Bach, bless his heart. But really, this fight isn't a current Park Ridge one, or even an American one. It was old when Henry II was a pup. The whole issue is the territorial one of who will decide things: the king or the pope? The state or the church? The taxpayers of Park Ridge, the homeless, the people who try to help the homeless (yes, some do it for a living, and what's wrong with that?) are not players. They're just medieval pawns.

Anonymous said...

SPOILER ALERT !!

COUNCIL RESOLVES PADS ISSUE!!

And here comes the compromise.

The shelters can operate in a school (not just a school, but SPC school), as long as the SPC school is not in session.

SO forget the weekend school activities and sporting events (oh yeah, there is a homeless person sleeping on the basketball court anyway). AND be sure to kick the homeless out before the kiddies are Monday morning. (There is irony in there somewhere.)

There are better alternatives. The Park Ridge Community Church, no school but no sprinklers. Gotta have sprinklers to protect the guests.

The house that SPC owns behind the school, OOPS, tore it down. Maybe they own another house?

The old Hills Hobby. Its vacant, might be fire protected, probably has a toilet. Maybe the owner could donate the use for a shelter until a new tenant.

The City of Park Ridge Annex House. Conveniently located next to City Hall and the Police Station. Could be made habitable by volunteers. Could be used until as decision is made regarding the new police station.

City Hall. There are bathrooms. The offices can be locked. The Police are in the basement. Kids are safe because Howard scares all the children away.

Seriously, its too bad the issue came down to “This is how its going to be because I said so” and “This will never happen because it may put my kids at risk.”

Someone should write a book about this highlighting the failure of leadership, failure of communication, and failure to have open minds. Sociology professors could write essays and lecture about Park Ridge’s struggle to find a place for a homeless shelter (or not) for years.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:52,

It's amazing the spin you put on a Supreme Court that is actually following the constitution versus using it as a non-representative legislative branch, You don't have to like the decisions, but this current court may be filled with structuralists, but they are hardly radicals. Your paranoia and fear about the church, whatever church that may be, controlling our lives in today's world of moral relativism is consuming way too much of your energy.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:30

I really like your City Hall idea; it is an excellent use of space with a touch of irony. I’m not sure where PADS could store cots & tables for 6 days a week – maybe in the annex house you mentioned.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:52

Amen brother (or sister, as the case may be).

Anonymous said...

From the Chicago Tribune,

"She said, 'I go to Assembly of God Church and I am a Sunday school teacher there and I see no relationship between my Christian faith and what hours the bars close,' " recalled Straatmeyer, now living in Texas. "She felt it was out of line for me to testify on behalf of the church groups I represented."

"She" being the VP nominee Sarah Palin.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/
news/nationworld/chi-palin-alcoholoct05,0,7731371.story

Anonymous said...

anon 10:30 PM:

I have to again ask this question. All of your suggestions get it out of a school gym but do you really believe they address all the issues?

The house behind the school? I know nothing about this but you say it is gone. Let's say it was still there. Do you think the SPC parents would be satisfied with that? There will still be homeless there and fears that they would be "hanging around" before and after the shelter hours. Are there not neighbors and merchants around virtually all your other suggestions? Would they not have the same objections as those around St. Mary's?

pain said...

I read here that faith and reason (science) are mutually
exclusive. I beg to differ. In the Catholic catechism when speaking on murder, states;#2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Therefore if I can kill an unjust aggressor to protect my family I should be able to vote no on a homeless shelter to keep my children safe.

Are there not alternative ways to help the homeless?

Anonymous said...

please tell me this is not true...oh please oh please oh please: did Fr. Carl get "renewed" for another year? I heard it through the PR grapevine this weekend.
PLEASE tell me it's not true.

Anonymous said...

Pain:

I believe that the deabte about your post would not be over the right to make that choice but instead over what is the definition of an unjust aggressor.

Anonymous said...

Fr Carl actually had time today to have this evenings mass. I really liked that he focused his sermon with PADS underlying it. Also, just so you all know, for the next meeting, the PADs folks have been told to “bring flashlights or candles.”
I can’t wait until Fr Carl moves to a new parish, because each week, less people are showing up to mass. Well, they probably found a normal church with a more direct focus, not a social work clinic.
–Young Physian, who has had it with St Paul’s ideas

Anonymous said...

The following is an excerpt from Fr Carl's Corner in July, back before he stated that the Concerned Parents were racial and economic bigots:
"As a follow up to the Monday July 7th meeting about hosting P.A.D.S in our Parish Life Center one night a week, I have been meeting with concerned parents. In those meetings, what has become clearer to me, is that there are folks who have legitimate questions that they want answered. However, some of this was lost in the meeting as many others wanted a chance to express their thoughts about P.A.D.S. and hosting it here. I have been meeting with parents one-on-one to address their questions and concerns and I am happy to do so.


Something else has come to light. There are some unnecessary comments and judgment being made from folks on both sides of this topic which is causing division among members of this community. This must stop for the good of all. I want to reiterate what I said at that meeting on Monday. It was not my intent, or that of any of the ministers in the Park Ridge Ministerial Association, to cause any divisiveness.

I personally had hoped that by taking the lead on P.A.D.S and working together with the Ministerial Association of Park Ridge, we might even reach a higher spiritual goal."

He's not a father, will never be a father and should stop calling himself a father if he's going to go against the PRMA original intent to "select the host parish with great care, in particular ruling out any church with an onsite school." He's lost all his dignity and credibility.

He should give a public apology for calling his parishioners racial and economic bigots when using his title as Pastor of St. Paul of the Cross Parish.

Anonymous said...

call the Vicar @ the Archdiocese Rev Canary: 312-751-8271
he is interested in what is going on.

Anonymous said...

we'll have to bring squirt guns and fire extinguishers to the next meeting. Who knows what the pads nuts will do next, burn themselves at the stake to be martyrs for the homeless (even if it's only 8 percent of the year they want to help) They obviously have had too much Koolaid.

Let's see: white t-shirt, check
candle, check,
flashlight, check
bible, check
common sense, what's that?

Anonymous said...

Maybe DCFS needs to be told what the school and parish and archdiocese are trying to do with pads.

Inviting homeless people onto/into school grounds dismissing on a school day is "creating a substantial risk to the child by other than accidental means which would likely cause ... impairment of physical or emotional health" Excerpted from Summary of DCFS reporting requirements from the Archdiocese Vertus training seminar.
Very useful. They also provide the DCFS hotline number. The homeless will not be gone when school starts. There is 6:25am mass, 8:00 confession, 8:30 mass and the adoration chapel opens at 6:00am. Obviously the church is using very poor or little judgement again. Should we trust the church, as Maureen Murphy implores?

Anonymous said...

Anon 11pm!! I love the idea! Squirt guns! Maybe they will sing Kumbaya too for an encore!

--Young physician

Anonymous said...

where is monday's meeting? city website says council chambers--that can't be right!
now that the Cubs are out of the playoffs, I fully intend on focusing my spare time on defeating PADS from EVER entering Park Ridge.

Anonymous said...

anonymous October 4, 2008 9:52 PM:

Nice trip down recent memory lane. Yeah, Morello and the PRMAs never thought that what they were doing would "cause any divisiveness" because they assumed everybody would just kowtow to them.

Apparently, Morello and the PRMAs can't reconcile "believers" and "critical thinkers" - they must think ALL of their "flocks" really are nothing but sheep.

Anonymous said...

Let's see........life does have a taste that the protected will never know.

PADS included!

Thanks