Saint Dogbert -- copyright Scott Adams
Is St. Paul of the Cross Pastor Carl Morello stupid? Or, does he think his congregants are? Like our title says, we're just asking!
What has inspired our question is the June 29th offering from Father Carl's Corner.pdf In it we read that Fr. Carl realizes that the decision and announcement to have St. Paul of the Cross host the PADS homeless shelter was done "rather quickly", and "That Sunday, June 8th, I printed in the bulletin what had been said earlier in the week at the City Hall meeting and what was sure to go into the newspaper. I tell you this simply to say to all the parish there was no intent to be sly and slip this by anyone. Rather, it was truly an effort to get the right word out in a timely manner under the circumstances."
It seems to the PRU Crew that Fr. Carl may be unfamiliar with when the local rags come out. To be helpful, somebody should let Fr. Carl know that the Journal & Topics comes out on Wednesdays, and the Herald-Advocate comes out on Thursdays...following Mondays, when City Council meetings are held.
So let's see, "earlier in the week at the City Hall meeting" would have been Monday, June 2, where Adreinne Timm (SPC's Social Service Minister) announced to all present at the City Council meeting that St. Paul of the Cross would host the PADS homeless shelter. O.K., so what day comes before Monday... Oh that's right -- Sunday comes before Monday. And what happens on Sunday... Oh that's right -- Mass happens on Sunday...before Monday. And what do priests do at Mass on Sunday... Oh that's right -- priests give a homily.
So let's see, on the Sunday before the Monday when the City Council and others learned of St. Paul of the Cross's plan to play host to PADS, did Fr. Carl give a homily? Why, yes! He did! In that homily did Fr. Carl mention PADS? Why, yes! He did! At any time during that homily did Fr. Carl give his congregation the courtesy of telling them, before the rest of the Park Ridge community heard the announcement at City Hall, that St. Paul of the Cross would host the PADS homeless shelter this coming fall? Why, no! He didn't!
And then Fr. Carl went on his excellent Poland adventure.
Fr. Carl also says to his congregation, "I also want you to know this. There were some folks, who wrote to say they were disappointed that I did not talk to the parish more about this and bring it to a vote. I have to say honestly that a “vote” was not something I felt would ever be possible. That was clear to me just by the responses I have gotten thus far." Right. It's only in a real democracy that you take a chance on losing a "vote" and agree to abide by the majority vote.
In any event, Fr. Carl does seem to be aware that, democracy or not, his bumbling of the public relations effort by failing to discuss the PADS shelter with his congregation first could produce an undesirable effect upon SPC's coffers. So Fr. Carl and his band of merry PADS proponents have planned a semi-public meeting for tonight; a format that closely follows the previous PADS meeting held at St. Mary's Episcopal Church.
In another offering from Fr. Carl's Corner for June 22nd, we read about concerns expressed in SPC's parish survey regarding etiquette for Mass. In that missive, Fr. Carl notes, "Churches are meant to be sacred places were people can pray. Keeping the noise down helps create that space. Protracted and loud conversations are never appropriate. (emphasis added)
So of course, tonight's meeting is supposed to be held in the St. Paul of the Cross Holy Family Chapel.
July 7, 2008
We're Just Asking!
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125 comments:
yet one more reason why many Catholics who live in Park Ridge do not attend church in Park Ridge.
Very interesting story today! What exactly does semi-public mean? I am not catholic so I am assuming I cannot attend. I am in agreement that this was a PR nightmare, not with SPC but with PRMA as a whole.
It seems to me we have two issues here. Too me, they are seperate issues.
1. The relation ship between church leaders, congragation and community at large.
2. Is it a good idea to have a PADS shelter in PR? Where? etc.
With regards to the first issue. It seems to me that there will always be some conflict between the church and community at large on some issues. In some cases, the church says they are motivated by their "mission" and in any given community there are people who share their faith of their mission. If any good has come out of this thur far it is that members of the congregation are looking and thinking about their relationship with the church. I have to be careful here as a non-catholic, but I would respcctfully submitt this is not the first time the church has acted in this manner and will not be the last. Evaluating and possibly taking action on this is an individual decision.
The second issue had been covered in many different ways on this board. I don't want to over simplify the issue but I think you are either in or your out. We have all read the cases for and against so I will not rehash them here. I just think if you fix issue one it does not fix issue two. Fr. Carl could have mentioned it directly in his homily as you suggest or he could have sent out an engraved letter of explanation months in advance and it would have not changed anything. If those parishiners who spoke at the city meeting had known well in advance about the PADS site they would still have had the same issues they expressed at the meeting.
As a member of the church, you can be pissed off about the way you feel you have been treated and try to change it (good luck with that!) But the way you were treated has nothing to do with your feeling (god or bad) about PADS.
As a member of the PR community I think an issue such as this REQUIRES and open forum and, in a perfect world, a vote. The voice of ALL in PR, catholics, non-catholics, people of faith and those with none have to be heard.
What we mean by semi-public is that the "larger community" of SPC parishioners and school families are welcome at the meeting, not just the inner circle deciders. However, we do know that people from outside the SPC parish and school community have expressed an interest in attending this meeting and some have been invited by SPC parishioners. We are not sure whether or not anyone "outside" the SPC "community" will be allowed to attend.
Wouldn't that be ironic? The PRMA and Fr. Carl demand that the entire community of Park Ridge welcome homeless people from outside Park Ridge into a PADS shelter here, but wouldn't allow just anyone within the Park Ridge community to attend their SPC -- PADS meeting?
Semi Public means (to me) that there was no public notice posted about this meeting. I encourage everyone to come. Why not? What is the worst that can happen? You might get more information than you bargined for. An educated parishoner/voter/community member is the what priests, politicians, and community leaders fear. They are the ones that ask the questions.
What time does it start?
7:30 pm, according to the notice on the SPC school web site -- in the last link in the article above.
I heard people attending the meeting are to wear a special color t-shirt in support of PADS. Is that true? I have many questions...why is the PRMA being so insistant that PADS comes here? They know there are people against it and there are people for it. Is it the most vocal...making the loudest noise...folks who will get their way? Also, if there is a concern about no PADS site between here and Evanston....what about Skokie, Morton Grove, Niles, Lincolnwood. Why does it have to be right here?
I tried calling the rectory to find out who exactly can attend the semi-private mtg....no answer. If anyone knows, pls let us know.
Anonymous at 11:03,
You make an interesting claim...that no matter the method, the sentiments of the SPC folks and everyone else would be the same...
I'm not as sure about that as you seem to be...
I do believe that folks might have been far far more willing to brainstorm ideas for addressing the PRMA's new sweetheart issue, homelessness, if folks hadn't gotten stiff-armed when they became alarmed at the lack of information they were getting in response to their very legitimate concerns, and they reacted very negatively to being told "our way or the highway" by their respective PRMA leadership, which seems to blithely brush aside those very legitimate concerns at every turn...
...but we'll never know, will we...that troubled holy water under the bridge has left the barn...if you'll pardon my twisted mix of metaphors... ;)
One of the things I find most troubling about the meeting set for this evening is the venue...as an albeit lapsed Catholic, I cannot imagine having this public policy discussion in a sacred place of holy worship...but it's been a long time since I've immersed myself in the dogmatic practices of my Catholic faith...it could be the physical church is no longer considered the strictly solmn and prayerful sanctuary for receiving the sacraments that it once was...
Bean:
The point I was making is that even if the church had told people in advance, they still have a position that a vocal group is against, and, at this point seem unwilling to change that position.
The position the church seems to be taking (based on their actions) is that they have a mission of charity which, as christians, they are obligated to act on. This is manifested as a shelter that serves ALL homeless (as long as they meet PADS criteria). This includes people with mental health issues, addiction issues etc. It is these groups that some parents of SPC children are concerned about as well as some PR residents.
I have seen nothing from anyone that says that the Church/PRMA is willing to compromise on their mission of charity and work out a way for the shelter to be "less risky." All the brainstorming in the world would not help if there is no compromise.
Again, even if people had been advised well in advance they would have the same objections to a PADS site as defined as it is today.
Anonymous at 1:44,
I appreciate your attempt to explain your meaning to me. What I am hearing you say is that for whatever reason the church is "wedded" to the PADS shelter program and will not compromise that "union", no matter what else might be offered to help ALL the homeless the church seeks to help...
I simply find that to be a bizarre position...then my more cynical angel in my nature takes over and I am left to wonder why it's "PADS or bust"...
I would like to point out though that while the church claims to be wedded to helping ALL the homeless...or perhaps you are making that claim for them (out of turn?)...and that PADS is the church's absolute and only acceptable vehicle for doing that, by the very nature of PADS having "criteria", as well as their claims about who they do and do not allow into PADS shelters...and under what circumstances...means that, in fact, PADS DOES NOT (and by extension, neither does the church) help "ALL" the homeless...PADS too makes a judgement about the "worthiness" of who they choose to assist...but it seems they're just much more "liberal" in that judgement...;)
Thank you for your thoughts.
bean:
You make great points and you are correct. My comments I make come from at best an educated guess. I am the last person in the world any reputable church would want making claims for them!
I would guess it is not PADS that they are wed to but the idea of servicing the entire gamet of homeless. I do not think they have any interest in saying, we will not accept people with addiction issues, mental health issues etc.
Its pretty sad when we can't have two way communication.
People to people.
Thank you.
I'm sorry You are all mad at a man who gave his life to serve Yo and help others
Failure is often very instructive...
Perhaps the man who has given his life to serve and help others will learn from his failure to do so on this issue.
What Failure The School Grew exponentionally under his eye he has doubled the schools facilities. Now he is just serving the community more by helping People who are less fortunate then you. PS get your facts straight before you post comments and Get some balls and not go by anonymous
"St. Paul parishonier and tuition payer" (sic) is your actual name?
If so, we can't be sure about you, though we have our suspicions, but it would appear both your parents had some major balls!
Seriously funny!
That IS hysterical.
What is your name, "parishoner"?
Speak up! We can't hear you!
From the way you write, I would assume you are either a member of the church's "inner circle" or perhaps one of its leaders?
The answer, for the millionth time to the PADS people is "NO". We don't want their shelter here.
Fr. Carl was simply lucky to succeed a pastor that did nothing for years to improve the facilities. By the time the old guy left there was so much pent up demand and so much money waiting to fill it that all Fr. Carl had to do was just say when. He wouldn't have had the balls to pull this PADS crap if he wasn't on his way out the door, or if he was trying to raise the $5 million for a new gym like back in 1999.
Dear St. Paul Parishonier and Tuition Payer
Not to Quibble, but if your Spelling, Punctuation and Capitalization skills are an Example of the current state of catholic education, I would demand my Tuition $ be returned.
Maybe, PADS will have a booth too at the "taste". Help fill the boot!!
Fr. Carl and Howie can rotate wkg the site - for charity - right!
Howie wouldn't work the booth, he would get his minions, the aldermonkeys, to do it.
The meeting in the lower church was a complete farse -- the Catholic church at its absolute worst. A solemn sanctuary? Solemnity and holiness were out the door when he outright lied on the altar. If you think Carl Morello has the hotline to St Peter, guess again, folks. The man -and he is a man, no more- is as dishonest as the day is long. Let us not forget lying by omission is the same as, if not worse than, telling falsehoods --but since Carl Morello consistently does both, who am I to split hairs????
I wouldn't let my kids get away with the sh*t this guy has pulled, in the name of Christ's work. Give me a break. Another sad day in Catholicism when you point to the priest and say - don't do as he says, and definitely don't do as he does.
We plan to leave SPC and Park Ridge entirely - it'll be better to watch the implosion from a distance. I can't say I am sorry - you morons who are all for this get what's coming to you.
to the "PRU crew" and other anonymous posters: occasionally as you congratulate yourselves on how witty and clever you are, you may take a moment to recognize that until you post your names, your just a bunch of cynical gossip mongers who operate under rocks and in shadows, too afraid of your information and ideas to reveal where they come from.
As one of last nights speakers so clearly pointed out, the St. Paul PARISH LIFE CENTER is NOT a school building. It is to be used by the PARISH for parish functions and ministerial needs. PADS falls into that category and has just as much (no, more) right to be housed there as parish school children do. There are 4000+ parish families. The majority do NOT attend the school and a parish project like this should NOT be held hostage by the small minority of school families who want to isolate their children from positive social action experiences. You have the option to go to another school - public or private. Please do so ASAP.
"positive social action experience"?
are you KIDDING?
you weren't supposed to drink the Kool-Aid!!!
This is NOT a SPC only decision. It effects the City of PR. They will need more police to patrol that area, etc.
perhaps you should ask a little more about the PADS group. ask about their history, are they FOR PROFIT?
you are not getting all the facts. It's a snow job in the middle of the summer.
Seems to me the opposition to the PADS shelter may just force SPC to admit the homeless on its own--and without the benefit of screening. The city has latched upon PADS being a private organization to justify the need for a permit. No one has suggested (yet) that a church needs a permit if the church, on its own, opens its doors to the widows, orphans, hungry and homeless--as the church has been tasked to do for hundreds of years. And if further hurdles are put in the way, the negative effect on Park Ridge should the Archbishop choose to make a statement on the matter would be devastating to our community's reputation nationwide.
As a parent myself, I understand concerns for our children. But making children aware of the realities of the world and showing them Christianity in action is also educational. And whenever there is opposition of this type, I am reminded of Jesus's description of the Judgment:
Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I WAS A STRANGER AND YOU INVITED ME IN, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."
Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? WHEN DID WE SEE YOU A STRANGER AND INVITE YOU IN, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?
The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, WHATEVER YOU DID FOR ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE BROTHERS OF MINE, YOU DID FOR ME."
Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I WAS A STRANGER AND YOU DID NOT INVITE ME IN, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."
They also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or A STRANGER or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?
He will reply, "I tell you the truth, WHATEVER YOU DID NOT DO FOR ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE, YOU DID NOT DO FOR ME."
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
--Matt. 25:34-46.
Bleet like a sheep for me! Baaa Baaa
Anonymous on July 8, 2008 11:18 AM and "st. paul parishoner" (you still can't spell it)...,
SPC will not be "forced" to admit the homeless into their SCHOOL GYM if PADS doesn't operate this "ministry" for them... SPC is obviously free to admit...or not...anyone into their facilities...or not. What they CHOOSE to do on that count is enitrely their own choice...nobody is forcing them to "house the homeless"...so your toothless "threat" is quite laughable...
As for any statements or "example making" of Park Ridge from any Archbishop...I promise you this...the only people who might care about that will be the Catholic flock...the rest of us, who think for ourselves, won't care one whit what some goof from the archdiocese thinks about anything...especially when that goof and the other goofs from within the Roman Catholic bureaucracy profess we all have to follow laws, but then take great pains for themselves to avoid doing the same...
As for what any parent chooses to expose their children to...or protect them from...that is, for the most part, the choice to be made by the parent(s)...unless you too are willing to give up your parenting authority and rights and turn it over to your neighbors...or a majority of the larger community...? Remember, Catholics are NOT a majority... Still interested in abiding by what a majority might decide to expose your child to...? I didn't think so...enjoy your insular dictatorship...
To those who threaten to leave if PADS comes to SPC.....do you promise to really pack up and leave? Please?!?!?!
Pleasantville will throw open its doors to you and your families. You will be able to keep everyone safe there...insulated from the rest of the world.
Concerned Parents - you have another option....Homeschooling. That way you can keep your children safe and control their world.
You have to love all the welcoming sentiments being expressed by these good christians. You idiots are a joke. Take your PADS shelter and shove it up your asses. You want your kids exposed to the bacteria farms of the homeless population? Go for it. Act out your good christian values and invite these homeless people into your own homes.
If the "good christians" were as good and faithfilled as they claim to be, they certainly would be willing to provide, themselves, the one they could to the homeless...a home for a night...their own homes...
But they won't, because they really aren't all that "good" or as "faithfilled" as they profess to be...which is why they so self-righteously demand that their neighbors and the entire community be enlisted to carry out their "christian values"...
It really is a sad joke...
The parish life center IS A SCHOOL BUILDING- it houses the library, computer lab, classrooms, administrative offices, lunchroom et al. for the care and instruction of St Paul students.
Unless you pay school tuition, you don't get access to those rooms and the gym is no different.
You can give it whatever moniker suits your non-tuition-paying selves; it was and will remain a private school building, period.
And yes, I certainly promise to pack up and get my kids out of that place, along with a host of others. Last night's meeting was the Catholic church at its absolute worst- do a little background check on the panel of speakers and the moderator: hypocrites, liars every one, including Carl Morello... Uttering untruths on the altar, no less. Classic! And the plants in the audience were obvious. Nice try, but this still comes down to business use - all the white shirted senior citizens in the world will not change the fact that a homeless shelter has no place in a school for young kids.
As an aside, I'd also like to propose an inquiry into how many of Carl's supporters maintain financially advantageous positions with the archdiocese. Again, the bottom line, as in all things, is money. Carl Morello knows a good thing when he sees it. So do his greedy cheerleaders.
You peaheads who keep pledging allegiance to the man mistake him for god, a sin in and of itself per your own asinine creed. He is a flawed mortal just like every last one of us, though perhaps more of an egomaniac than was previously thought to be mortally possible. He f*cked up royally. The parish and the school are going to suffer and it is on his head, period.
And you can bet your weeping icon I'll post anonymously - the conduct of the fundamentalist nutcases that I witnessed last night makes me afraid for my own safety -- religion in place of education is a very scary proposition. Those nasty 'christian' kooks have obviously never cracked a philosophy treatise - but why bother with hard intellectual work when Carl Morello can do your thinking for you???
The greatest and most aprapos line of the night was a fella paraphrasing Einstein: the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Thanks PRU! I will relish the pic of Morelleon for all time.
The suggestion that Christians in Park Ridge should take homeless people into their own homes is, again, a laudable idea--though certainly not meant to be. Instead of having the homeless in a commercial area of town under supervision, this would get them out into all areas of the community itself. Small groups, together with a trained monitor, could bed down in the many capacious basements, family and living rooms throughout our city. Certainly there is no law against inviting such guests. Probably worth exploring if opposition to the PADS shelter continues. Our family would sign up to be hosts, and I imagine others would too. Maybe Fr. Carl could start a list.
We believe it to be laudable and reasonable. Everyone has the right, as you correctly pointed out, to invite into their homes any guest they want to invite, free from government oversight.
We would suggest that Fr. Morello, and every other member of the PRMA, top the list of those who will personally host homeless guests in their own personal living quarters.
To 2:32 pm
You say that the PLC is a SCHOOL BUILDING. Not so. It is a PARISH building USED by the school. The library is not art os the PLC nor are the administrative offices nor the classroomsnor the lunchroom nor the computer lab. All are separated by LOCKED doors. Have you been un the school lately? Have you visited the upper grade Center and PLC?
Parents of the parish who DO NOT pay tuition have access to these rooms and more if they send their children to CCD.
Who died and gave these Concerned Parents the Keys to the Kingdom?
2:32 pm
Ok...then go! Stop your finger wagging threats and pull your kids out.
Is there a way to communicate your issues, fears, and concerns without having to introduce hate, confusion, lies, hypocracy, half truths, and pure ignorance?
It seems to me that there are valid, legitimate concerns that can be raised without having to embarrass yourselves with your childish posts and comments. Both sides of this issue have very valid issues.
Aside from Mike Dorgan, the only one strong enough to post his name, your posts are all laughable.
I send this with no interest in in starting or engaging in dialouge you, as you don't deserve that. But rather to remind you that everyone's mind is made up (insert childish comment about Fr. Carl here). The information was all shared last night... right or wrong. At this point, you are either for the shelter, or against it. You're all simply posting to each other, and everyone else is only watching and likely laughing at you.
I, however, will be praying for you... as the majority of you appear to be in desperate need of that. Do unto others...
I bet the member's of St. Mary's are happy that this isn't in their court anymore. Wonder what it was that made PADS back away from St. Mary's? Some of us already know what it is.
SPC will learn this soon.
I have asked this question here before and never got an answer. I am not a regular church goer and not a catholic so I guess that is why I am so confused.
I have read many posts from people on this site and others who appear to be catholic and have kids at SPC who are now up in arms and threating to leave the school and church.
So why did it take so long? This is what caused you to question your religion? This is the first time you have ever disagreed with the church? You talk about protecting the children and yet you made it through the prieest pedophile issue and cover up and you didn’t quit???
You and I are against PADS for the same main reason - RISK. But you have sat there for years listening to the sermons. As an outside observer I see nothing in the behavior of SPC that is inconsistent with their “mission” or their past behavior. Wern’t you listening?
I left the Catholic churches in PR years ago. I did NOT leave my religion. There is a big difference.
I think any person here judging another for their opinion should take a moment to question their own level of Catholicism. The church is made up of a community and in a community their are bound to be differing opinions. I think its unfair for anyone to suggest that teaching the children of SPC about the hardships of life is irresponsible. I feel like if I would like to continue to let my kindergartner believe that the world is a truly happy place for a little while longer that is for me to decide. And further more I don't believe it will make him or her any more prepared to deal with the pitfalls of life by knowing any sooner. Can't we let our children be children for awhile longer? I hear a lot of name calling and hate being thrown around here and people determining a good catholic by the level of help they are willing to lend a stranger in the name of Jesus. But didn't Jesus also teach us about tolerance and peace? Or was feeding and providing shelter to the needy the only focus of the Bible?
How dare anyone encourage someone to leave the church or school just because they do not share the same views on a topic. You should be ashamed of yourself!!!!
Anonymous at 3:34 said
"I bet the member's of St. Mary's are happy that this isn't in their court anymore. Wonder what it was that made PADS back away from St. Mary's? Some of us already know what it is.
SPC will learn this soon."
Please tell us! We are operating on negligible info as it is - do we have any hope that PADS will not get a toehold and ruin SPC?
PADS is a total scam. Those people sop up government money and just perpetuate the problems enabling the homeless, and the church suckers are helping them do it just so they can feel good about themselves. What a racket.
4:14 anon-
I have been more than listening, I have been experiencing the good and the bad of the Catholic church my entire life - grammar school, high school, college and grad school - when it works, it is really really good, e.g., Misericordia, Mercy Home, Loyola Hosp, Cristo Rey -all the schools...
I have faith in the schools, for educational purposes. The religious rigamarole, honestly, I could do without. You take the good with the bad, though, when it is worth it, right?
My faith is faith in Catholic education and in discipline, not religious instruction. I also respect the good works and ministering of the church, when it is appropriate. A homeless shelter in a school is in no way appropriate, unless it is for homeless kids, and then we would call it an orphanage, and then it, too, would have to be located elsewhere.
I have no faith in and little patience for the arcane nuances of transubstantiation or strident pro-lifery or substituting the well being of one class of persons [innocent children] ostensibly to benefit another [homeless].
Cafeteria Catholic, they call it; it is the only way to make the whole system palatable enough in the modern era to have much to do with it at all, and I challenge you to find many Catholics who do not approach it this way. Correction - many under age 65. Any under 40.
Organized religion is a means, not the end.
Judgment at the pearly gates awaiting me for looking out for little kids? Fine,
I'll take my chances.
"Transubstantiaton" -- now THAT is a Catholic! An educated one!
For the uninitiated heathens, we mean that lovingly, you may think of it as "Catholic cannibalism", but then that's where the unappreciated "nuance" anon@6:49 is talking about comes in.
Rockin' good fun!
You're kidding, right?
anon 6:49:
I appreciate what you are saying. It is like take what you need and leave the rest. The only problem is when you buy a piece you buy the whole thing.
With "pro-lifery" it is no big deal. You can believe what you want and confess if you feel the need. It is between you and god.
In theory you can even have your own interpretation of charity and choose to not give money or time to organizations. But this one is a problem. This is tangible and even if you dissagree it appears they are coming.
They consider this a part of their mission. I know they have soup kitchens and I am guessing they have shelters in other churches in the us.
The point of my earlier post was not that every catholic has to agree with a PADS shelter. I was just asking how on earth can so many catholics be shocked by this when it seems to me to be completely in character.
I love your phrase cafeteria catholic!! Only it appears this one is going to end up on your plate whether you want it or not.
This thread is a fascinating snapshot of our community, albeit somewhat disturbing. Personally, I have been ambivalent about the PADS issue in and of itself and remain so.
But allow me a digression and bear with me for a moment here and I will probably get to the point. Since I am posting under my real name, I will reveal that I am a proud heathen, by which I mean “agnostic”. Agnostic isn’t synonymous with atheist…it simply means “I don’t know.” I don’t believe anyone knows or can know. How can the churches bosses simultaneously encourage us to embrace God’s unknowable mystery and then profess to explain that mystery in detail, right down to what to eat on what day? I don’t know. As Yogi Berra might say: you are all agnostics without even knowing it except of course those of you who are know you are agnostic.
I spite of the fact that I don’t believe in a deity who takes a personal interest in whether Notre Dame wins, I embrace a code of personal conduct that is similar to what most christians would recognize as their own. I continue to believe that we are obligated to help those who are in need. It’s not a christian thing with me, but part of a different set of spiritual beliefs. Suffice it to say that I act on those beliefs (“But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth” – Matthew 6:3) in my daily life.
Therefore, I was initially skeptical about the PADS issue primarily because of the way it was handled by the local clergy. We all know that story by now. As things progressed and various professional christians started pointing fingers at lesser members of the community, my ability to sort the facts began to dissolve. Nevertheless, I tried to follow the topic objectively as the public conversation became more strident. But once Friar Morello stepped up to the altar, the possibility of reasonable discourse disappeared. The assumption that the catholic church has the right to dictate to the community at large is remarkably arrogant. The fact that the church’s adherents feel comfortable lecturing the rest of us about right and wrong betrays the kind of smug certainty – based on imaginary facts – we also see emanating from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
But now, ladies and gentlemen of the blog, Anonymous 11:18 threatens us with the BIG GUNS, the Archbishop himself. I quote the earlier post: “And if further hurdles are put in the way, the negative effect on Park Ridge should the Archbishop choose to make a statement on the matter would be devastating to our community's reputation nationwide.”
The Archbishop, in his red satin gown is going to dis Park Ridge, yeah denounce Park Ridge before the entire nation if we don’t give into his eminence? Ruin our national reputation just when we were bouncing back from the Hillary thing? Excommunicate the entire city? Will we be left behind when the four horsemen of the apocalypse come galloping down Touhy Avenue?
Give me a break, man.
The four horsemen won't be galloping down Touhy because they will want to cut through at Cumberland and won't be able to.
The pads supporters have been so lovely and christian in their comments. I can't believe the hatred and self-righteousness they have toward the people that want to take a 2nd look at other options and ideas. They've said good riddance to anyone who doesn't blindly follow the flock. If I was on the fence before, they've certainly turned me to the evil side. Father Carl has no idea how NASTY his supporters are to the concerned parents and neighbors. They wore white last night to make themselves feel like the good guys, but they are all so full of hate, it's disgusting. I have volunteered for Pads and I would volunteer at a site in a safer, more controlled location.
I heard a pads supporter was irate that the school directory was being used for solicitations to oppose Pads and confronted the concerned parent. How insane!!! We all are supposed to be friends-
how ignorant not to see the true concern and worry people have over this issue!
Isn't anyone suspicious about why this HAS to happen starting in October? Is there some grant money applied for PR already coming in that PADS needs? How much will they get? PADS wasn't here last October, for the 5 homeless people in PR, what about Social Services in the interim? At the meeting last night Pads said THEY (pads) were contacted by PR city officials initially, they didn't contact PR. Who are these city officials that contacted PADS anyway?
It's sad that the PRMS has really
brought out the worst in their supporters. Father Carl has given the opportunity for the mean, hateful pads supporters to show their true colors. I hugged a friend, a pad supporter, in white last night at the meeting, and her friends in white next to her actually said to her later: "How can you still be friends?' Are you listening FR Carl?
There are only crazy conspiracy theorist on this sight... so no, he's not listening!
Holy crap, are you people for real? This is better than prime-time TV!
so now it's a conspiracy theory to ask a question about grant money.
Oh, it is allll about money, no mistake, but no conspiracy either.
I WISH there were a conspiracy, say- the Bilderbergers conniving to launder american 501c3 dollars into euros via homeless shills, but no, it's only a tyrannical priest, his white shirted hench-laiety and garden variety money grubbing. Yawn.
Can the person who spoke of St Mary's being in-the-know as to why PADS backed off there please chime in? What's the deal??? What do the SPC people not yet know???
Maybe the reason we're hoping/planning to open the PADS shelter in October is because we're aware of the Chicago weather patterns. That's when it becomes cold here. Wait -- maybe we should "think about things" for 6 months while we leave 15 people out in the cold every week. Yup, it's important to "dicuss alternatives." Real issues, real opportunities require real action.
Don't forget, pride goeth before a fall, Proud SPC parishoner.
In other news, 15 you say? We do remember reading a suggestion somewhere that since there are no less than 15 member churches in the PRMA, each could sponsor 1 lucky homeless person!
There you go! Perfect! No need for PADS! Each church could give 1 lucky homeless soul all the special attention and assistance and human touch that 1 lucky homeless person could ever journey to hope for!
there are 5 homeless people in park ridge, according to pads at the meeting last night
We're all aware the winter is coming. There are beds that go unused in homeless shelters throughout the city.
Even better! A 3-church to 1-homeless soul ratio! Think of all that could be accomplished if the PRMA really devoted themselves to helping the homeless right here in Park Ridge!
anony-mouse at 3:34, what do you know? Please? I didn't drink the kool-aid!!!
Get real. The PRMA doesn't want to do anything they can't publicize and make a big public show of. And the PADS milks the homeless for getting contributions. It's all a big sucker scam.
What is that saying......." I love my country but I'm afraid of my government?"
When did we pass " home rule" here?
Thank you too!
PS And no - the ideal of replacing the statue in front of the PR library with one of Hillary is not true.
It will be " Howie" after he leaves office! Beers on me!!
To Anon at 7/8 - 11:45
PADS supporters don't want that much responsibity, they prefer a dog & pony show, one that is convient and takes only a few hours. What you propose is REAL involvement, isn't PRMA trying to get away from answering those pesky "knocks on the door"?
PADS is out for the money, out to improve their own bank account. They are NOT interested in the community. They are USING YOU, SPC parishoners.
We said NO to the PADS location at St. Mary's. We fought them. They were active on this very site for a while. Now they are silent. We KNOW what they are up to. They know we are aware.
What do they know? What do they know?
Do you morons understand that someone sits at his/her computer and throws out some stupid "theory", and says, "we're just asking", and then you idiots panic... and all of a sudden Howard Frimark or Fr. Carl are suspected of shooting JFK?
Then he goes back to his dinner table with his/her fat-ass spouse and brags about how he/she is changing the world by starting dialouge... regardless of who gets hurt in the process... Priests, Homeless People, Neighbors, Parishoners, Friends.
See, these Losers have nothing but this site. That's why the complain about EVERYTHING... EVERYTHING!
Your validating their hate. Be men and women and don't fall into it. I have to admit, it's fun to read your idiotic comments... but, only in the same way it's fun to watch America's Funniest Home Videos... watching people do stupid things. But at least they might win some money.
I'm not questioning your faith... I'm questioning your intelligence.
Hey 8:01...take not the speck out of your neighbor's eye until you take the log out of your own. It is foolish (and un-Christian?) to chastise soemone for being mean and nasty by being meaner and nastier than the other. Makes you look like a fool, which I suspect you are.
I think you left out the part where me being rude is somehow related to Fr. Carl or Howard Frimark...
(Don't forget, you have to add a conspiracy theory the every posting... it's in the manual.)
And for the the record: You're wrong, again. But, at least you're consistent!
Have a great day!
I'm not blaming your inability to be polite on anyone but you.
Is that really the best you have to come back with?
This entire web-site is "rude" and "nasty". You're all cowering in the corner.
One question: Why is the most consistent comeback to supporters that they are being non-Christian or rude, or nasty? Do only the opponents have the ability to be rude?
If the attempt was to put me in my place, thanks. I've very comfortable there.
Give some healthy debate:
The TB argument was shot down as inaccurate.
The Chicago Police Officer was not killed by a PADS resident. But, apparently that didn't matter to the officer who claimed he was on Monday Night. How horrible is it that they would make up a lie about that?
The dirty facility argument was shot down.
All the residents are dangerous was proven wrong.
All you have are some unbelievable theories about money, the church, and falsehoods about PADS.
Move on and find something else to hate.
The Shelter will happen.
I already have had "visitors" on my front porch in the middle of the night (on more than one occassion). To say I'm disappointed that the shelter might open right down the street from my house, is an understatement. To say I'm disappointed in Park Ridge and the Ministerial Association, is an understatement. I find the PRMA to be just as devious and with the same "my way or the highway" mentality as the Mayor and company. If I want it done, it will be so. In the name of God or Howard. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Good luck with that.
Pads says there are 5 homeless people in Park Ridge. Get ready Summit resident for more middle of the night "visitors" on your porch! The PRMA and Pads want to import even more homeless to Park Ridge!
Why should Glen Ellyn and Arlington Hts. have all the fun!
Here is a question. What if the PADS shelter remained the same with only one change. You have to be a veteran to get in. The shelter would only accept those who had served in the military.
Does that change anything?
With a shelter at St. Paul, there won't be a need for homeless people to sleep on your front porch.
(Nice job of including Frimark in your rant, though.)
Talk about inaccurate,you seem to have a problem listening, if you were at the meeting paying attention, you would have heard the police officer say it was a HOMELESS person who shot the policeman, not a PADs approved guest. I wonder what else you missed. The Pads supporters don't listen or investigate anything on their own.
The Chgo police officers that live in this area keep warning all of us the pads shelter WHERE it is being planned is not safe.
details shmeatails.
oops, I forgot to mention it was the pads approved card carrying sex offender who raped a little girl in Glen Ellyn, But that was the Dupage pads. That would never happen in Cook County.
Someone asked about the homeless veterans. What about the VFW Hall at Higgins and Canfield? It's still in Park Ridge. It's closer to the L which is much cheaper to ride than the Metra for those who are homeless. Are there facilities there (shower et al) that would work? The school is not involved then.
Sorry, but i heard him loud and clear.
And, the person who called my house to offer a petition to sign said the same thing.
Sad... very sad. Thare are no victims, as long as you get your way... not even the family of a slain Police Officer.
Kool-aid, Smool-aid.
Someone from this site just tried to obtain my IP address, so they can track me.
Nice people you are. Independant exchange of ideas, huh?
12:12..."the shelter will happen" if and only if the the Planning and Zoning Commission says so, the City Council agrees, and the church agrees to abide by whatever conditions are placed on teh special use permit. If the church decides to challenge that procedure, I for one will be ready and willing to resort to the legal system to ensure that our laws are respected. The stakes are too high not to.
Summit:
I don't know the answer about the VFW. The question I posed was hypothetical. I have heard a variety of opinions about the make up of the homeless population as back up data for not having a PADS shelter (by the way I would vote no on PADS in PR). I was just curious if limiting it to those to whom we owe so much for serving our country would change anything. I take by your post that the answer for you is no.
With our tax dollars, Dave?
Haven't you guys spent it all, already?
Anon@1:25 PM --
False. Our Tech hasn't been working our meter today, and posters here do not have the ability to do that sort of search.
Ok...that Chicago Police Officer has a NAME....
His name is Richard Francis. Stop using his death and the homeless women who took his life to fight your argument. She NOTHING like the PADS residents and unless you know all the FACTS of that case stop talking about it. Were any of you there? Do you know any more than you have read in the paper?
There is disrespect and unChristian like behavior on both sides. So many think they are entitled to have the only and CORRECT opinion.
While I have not chosen a "side", I will ask this... until you have to kiss your loved one good bye as they head off to work knowing deep in your heart that you may never see them again.....until you stay awake all night waiting to hear the door open knowing your loved one has come home safe from a night of fighting crime.....until you have to attend the St. Jude Parade and look at the families of these fallen heros.....you leave Richard Francis, a fallen hero, out of this discussion.
I already have three Big Brothers. I don't need another one.
Good luck everyone! You're being watched.
I thought this was America.
We have an Alderman in bed with a group that is tracking people's personal computers???
I'm getting off this site! I suggest you do the same.
The can get your passwords, e:mails, personal information, Social Security information, etc...
Shame.
Agreed. That was the point. Nicely said!
Anon@1:50 PM --
Complete bullshit, and a very transparent attempt to get people to stop reading and posting here.
IP addresses can only locate the general geographic location of a computer.
Site meters log IPs and hosts, and hosts can somtimes reveal a business location.
As an example of what a meter logs, see below --
Host Name c-67-176-149-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net
IP Address 67.176.149.249
Country United States
Region Illinois
City Chicago
ISP Comcast Cable Communications Inc
Returning Visits 0
Visit Length 13 mins 44 secs
VISITOR SYSTEM SPECS
Browser MSIE 7.0
Operating System Windows Vista
Resolution 1280x1024
Javascript Enabled
All individual and personal information is unobtainable by a third party from an IP address. You need a court order to get the ISP to provide contact information for a specific IP address.
But don't take our word for it. Check for yourself -- there is a ton of information available about IP addresses and private information on the web.
If we have to spend tax money to protect the rule of law, then so be it. That would be unfortunate, but it would not be the City's fault. The solution is simple: comply with the law.
You are absolutely correct U'ground. Sounds like some fear mongering going on about the "evil blogs." Don't buy it folks.
When I go on the internet I generally assume someone is watching (or at least can if they want to). That's called FISA isn't it?
No, that's called Carnivore.
The big brouhaha over the FISA bill was the Bush Administration's insistence on immunity for telecomms -- the ISPs -- that provide information to the government.
Even the Feds can't really get their hands on your information if the telecomms don't give it to them.
But that is the point. The telcoms are giving it to them - not that I have anything to hide.
You have nothing to hide - - - except your name!
Back at ya.
Actually, my name is Anonymous.
:)
You sure talk a lot, Anonymous!
;)
It's amusing in a sad way, but for too many especially older people computers are still ***magic***. They just don't understand how things work.
Keep up the good works, PRU crew and thank you for this blog.
SPC Parent & CPD loved one
Amen brother/sister! Leave Office Francis out of this.
Today has been quite amusing. Thanks for the fun in spite of the issue at hand. :)
100 comments!
Whooo hoooo!
I second that WOO HOO!!!
I think we hit a nerve here PRU.
Thank you for letting all the sides talk about their thoughts on the issue.
Summit Resident--you better get ready.
Alderman Dave--please save us!
Mayor Frimark--you are LOVING THIS arent you? Nobody is paying attention to your b.s. for a while. Don't worry, I have great (Catholic) faith that you will do something and the PADS issue will be off the chat for a while.
See you all at the TASTE!!!!
alderman dave, what is the next step in the PR administrative process for PADS/SPC? when is it that there is a formal decision that PADS and/or SPC will need to apply for special use permit? when is the next city council [or other] meeting? any details?
now that PADS has to get a permit, I bet they will back off.
This could be a record-setting blog - 103 comments and counting!
I want to bring up a new perspective on PADS and PRMA in Park Ridge. It has to do with civility and respect. So let's explore this.
The city has a responsibility to enforce its laws.
If the city determines that a PADS shelter in a Park Ridge church requires a special Use permit, then they will require it.
If PADS and the PRMA are civil and respectful, then they will accept this and comply.
But PRMA and PADS and Fr. Morello are choosing to disrespect the city and its representatives (say what you may about them, they still should be respected for the offices they hold...)by stating firmly that they are above the law, and they do not need to comply and will sue the city to get their way.
The only conclusion that I can come to on this subject is that PRMA, PADS, SPC and all of the supporters of this proposal want it all.
They are saying they refuse to be reasonable and civil and go along with any reasonable and civil request for a special use permit, because this is a charitable mission of the church, and they are not bound by civil laws.
Then in the next breath, they say if they don't get their way they will use the civil laws to sue the city.
So if they were to loose a lawsuit, will they go back to the religious side, and say they are not bound by the decision?
Perhaps one of the underlying issues to this whole thing has been the lack of respect; and the manner in which our town and its residents are being forced - not asked - to accept and support this charity.
Maybe that worked in feudal europe, but it sure doesn't fly in the USA.
anon10:19:
Very interesting post. I would agree with you and go a step further to say that there has been a lack of civility on both sides of the issue.
SPC would never want me to speak for them, but I imagine they might say that if they were completely "civil" by your definition, there would never be a shelter of a soup kitchen on any given community.
They believe (as misguided as many think they are) this is a part of their mission of charity and want to get this done. Are you suggesting that if they were somehow more civil that people would have agreed to a shelter in any form? I think not.
July 9 at 10:19 pm -
Thank you for your post. You said exactly what I wanted to say but just didn't have the right words.
Hi 6:44...I am not positive what will happen next. Personally, I think the ball is in St. Paul's court. We have an ordinance which requires a special use permit, and the courts have said we can apply that process to a church-run homeless shelter. The next step should be for the church to decide internally whether it still wants to go forward with the shelter despite the upheaval it is causing within the parish. If they do decide to go forward, then they need to apply for the special use permit. Now, it is entirely possible that other aldermen do not necessarily agree with my position. They may decide at the next Council meeting on July 21that a vote on whether to require a permit is necessary. Personally, I do not believe that is necessary or even proper. The law is the law, and we must enforce it as written, not vote to decide whether to enforce it or not.
Alderman:
Thanks for the post. I may have missed something (that happens oftern). I was under the impression that SPC/PRMA had basically anounced that they intended to go forward in October. Obviously they are under pressure some church members but I have seen nothing related to them changing the October date or changing their mind.
Are they not operating under the position that they do not need a permit and until the city tells them it is required they are going forward?
If so that would mean, at least to me. the ball is in the cities court.
I honestly do not know what the thought process of the church is. Father Morello said at the committee meeting that he did not think the church should have to get a permit, but he did not say the church would defy the law. I also heard from someone at the Monday night meeting that he left open the possibility that the church would comply with the law. I sure hope so, because it would help ease alot of tension and it would save the taxpayers and the St. Paul's parishioners the expense of legal fees. I am sure it will all be made more clear at the July 21 City Council meeting. Imagine being a St. Paul's parishioner whose donations to the church are being used to fight the city while the city is using the same parishioner's tax money to fight the church. Talk about double jeopardy.
Ever hear of pro-bono? I put my money on the fact that the 3000 plus volunteers of 18 current church run shelter ministries could find a lawyer willing to represent SPC for free. So unless you are willing to do the same for the Village Dave then it would be the Village using the tax payers money to sue the church made up of tax payers who are in support of the shelter at SPC...hmmmm.
So the obvious and least costly solution is for the church to follow the law.
To Anonymous 3:40:
"So unless you are willing to do the same for the Village Dave then it would be the Village using the tax payers money to sue the church made up of tax payers who are in support of the shelter at SPC...hmmmm."
Yes, it would be the city (Park Ridge is not a village) suing the Archdiocese (not the SPC – “the church”) because SPC will have thumbed its nose at the city's laws and ordinances.
Ergo, in a not so convoluted way one could easily put the responsibility for any suit on SPC and the Archdiocese.
You wouldn't reasonably expect the city to look the other way while its laws and ordinances are ignored would you?
You wouldn’t expect that when some nouveau rich trader from Chicago buys the house next to you and knocks it down to build some mega mansion, would you?
Like anybody else SPC should comply.
I don't believe that many catholics will leave the SP church - should a PADS shelter become a reality.
Additionally, If you have the shelter and attempt to run/operate it without the proper training, safety and most of all security - then you would have a lawsuit faster than a LaSalle street atty could file one.
Coming back to the table and working this out is the only path.
Should the PEOPLE not want this - then Fr. Carl must listen to them.
In a church - you get to say what's on your mind but remember - there are priests out there that will do what they want - and that is why many have left their churches and very possibly their religon too.
Thank you.
Good catch Wondering. 3:40 is obviously not a resident of our fair CITY. You always have such insightful, not inciteful, comments. Have you ever thought of running for alderman? We could use someone like you.
you GO, alderman Dave...
If he/she's smart and insightful, he/she'd never make it as a PR Alderman.
Dave: You're alderman if a tiny town... get a hold of yourself. You guys act like people give a crap what you think and what you do.
You're just a necessary evil of our government.
I can't wait until you fail with this. We'll stay in touch. Hungry for some hungry pie?
I did go Mouse. To the Taste. Now I'm sopping wet. Only had time to survey the scene and grab a bowl of chili of all things before the heavens opened, no pun intended. But at least now I know where everything is. I'll be back tomorrow night after work. Working the beer tent Saturday afternoon. Good times. See ya there.
can't we all be on the same page?
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and why is it that this whole PADS thing cant be moved to the Senior Center??
The suburb of Glen Ellyn is closely following our situation at www.glenellynsafety.org. Once in their community, PADS expanded to 3 nights a week, including summer. (year round?) with 3 separate locations in order to accomodate the influx of rotating guests from other areas. It is an interesting perspective of PADS mission of growth and how that community has been affected.
I promised myself I wouldn’t open my mouth and go as low as writing on one of these dumb pages…but I just can’t help it.
After watching the 5 o’clock news one night and hearing a “Park Ridgeion” state he didn’t move his family to Park Ridge for all of this – all I, as well as the others in the room could do was sit in aw and remark on how snobby, selfish and downright rude that comment was.
“Is this even snobby or is it fear of the unknown?”
With all the horror that is going on in this world today, you are upset about a homeless shelter? We have wars going on, terror everywhere, and this is your fight? Guess what – those that are homeless are most likely Veterans – Veterans who gave people the right to complain in this country……
“…veterans account for 23% of all homeless people in America.” (National Coalition for Homeless Veterans)
Why don’t you take the BMW’s and large SUV’s you all drive around and stop – look at yourselves and what you are complaining about. Yes, I understand you are concerned about your tax money, etc. I would be too.
But…instead of making this such a negative issue, for example: threatening to take your children out of a wonderful school with their friends, calling a Priest “Stupid,” or having a fear of the homeless, YOU don’t know where you will be in a year with the way the World is going right now…
Take advantage of this. Why don’t you come out of your office and spend some time volunteering and really trying to help those around you – As a Christian – you should not be turning your back to those in need.
Anon@7:07 8/5/08 --
Premature posting? Did you take the time to read through your ill-timed site search? If you did, then you should now understand the feelings expressed on this site towards veterans, as well as the many efforts undertaken by the "snobby, selfish and downright rude, BMW and large SUV driving Park Ridgeion"(sic) population on behalf of our veterans.
Do yourself a favor and don't spend another hour reading here, because you obviously can't control yourself.
Somebody just referred me to this site. With the exception of maybe a couple posters like Park Ridge Parishioner, you people are shameful. Fr. Carl's a good man, and actively working for social justice is what Christianity actually should be about, not just identity politics. Get some perspective.
If actively working for social justice is what you feel Christianity should be about, then we look forward to the Church giving up its tax exempt status and registering as a pac.
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